#300: What Your Messaging is Missing: How to Close the Meaning Gap (with Diane Wiredu, Founder of Lion Words)

#300 Drive | This episode is from Drive 2025, our 2-day in-person event for B2B marketers in Burlington, VT. It features Diane Wiredu, Founder of Lion Words and expert in B2B messaging and positioning. She shared a killer talk on “What Your Messaging Is Missing,” breaking down why most B2B copy sounds the same and how to close the meaning gap by focusing on clarity, balance, and buyer context.

Head over to exitfive.com/drive to join the waitlist for Drive 2026 and be the first to know when tickets go on sale.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro from Dave
  
• (02:52) - – What “message-market fit” actually means
  
• (05:22) - – Why most B2B messaging misses
  
• (09:27) - – The “meaning gap” and why it happens
  
• (14:12) - – Balancing clarity, emotion, and differentiation
  
• (19:37) - – How to simplify complex products
  
• (26:33) - – Examples of messaging that actually resonates
  
• (32:03) - – How to pressure-test your messaging
  
• (38:18) - – Aligning teams around a clear message
  
• (44:03) - – Turning insights into copy that converts
  
• (49:13) - – Q&A: internal buy-in, testing, next steps

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Dave [0:00:00]: You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt.

Dave [0:00:03]: Hey, It's Dave Quick note before we get into this episode, this is a recording from Drive twenty twenty five, our annual event.

Dave [0:00:24]: Here at Exit Five.

Dave [0:00:25]: This was recorded live in Burlington Vermont at Hula as part of our event.

Dave [0:00:29]: And we'd love to have you at next year's event.

Dave [0:00:32]: We're bringing it back to Vermont Stove vermont.

Dave [0:00:34]: You can go to Exit Five dot com slash drive to get more information, put your name on the waitlist list and maybe make it to next year's event.

Dave [0:00:41]: But we're bringing the audio recordings from these sessions to you live, well, recorded on the podcast because, we thought it'd be a fun way to show you the stuff we talk about a drive and give you a sense of what it was like.

Dave [0:00:53]: If you didn't get to be there.

Dave [0:00:54]: And if you were there, then you get to now re listen and maybe take notes again.

Dave [0:00:58]: So this is one of the sessions from Drive.

Dave [0:01:00]: Go and check it out, Get tickets, put your name on the waitlist list for next year, Exit Five dot com slash drive.

Dave [0:01:05]: Our next, speakers, she spends her days in the trenches with b b marketers, writing messaging that makes the value of their products easy to understand.

Dave [0:01:14]: She's the founder of Lion Words a messaging consultancy that helps B tech companies find message market fit.

Dave [0:01:20]: And before that, she spent nearly a decade running localization in global comps for major brands.

Dave [0:01:25]: She speaks five languages fluently, she'll kick your ass and a workout, I know that as a fact.

Dave [0:01:30]: And that explains why she's so get at translating text peek into messaging that resonates when she's not breaking down b b product stories, you'll find her with a heavy dumbbell or a glass of wine in her hands, though thankfully, not at the same time.

Dave [0:01:41]: She's gonna share what your messaging is missing, how to close the meaning gap, and she's here because she was one of the most highly rated speakers that we've had on one of our virtual events earlier this year.

Dave [0:01:52]: Please give it up all the way from Barcelona, Diane Wiredu.

Diane [0:01:58]: Morning, everyone.

Diane [0:01:59]: Nice to be here.

Diane [0:02:01]: Highly Alright.

Diane [0:02:02]: So the reason that I'm here is because we have a little bit of a messaging problem in B2B marketing.

Diane [0:02:08]: And I think I know why.

Diane [0:02:10]: So for years, folks like me, the messaging experts, right, The copywriter, the communicators have been giving marketers the same advice.

Diane [0:02:19]: Be clear.

Diane [0:02:21]: Show the value, be compelling.

Diane [0:02:23]: Right?

Diane [0:02:24]: The magic trifecta their advice.

Diane [0:02:25]: If you do this, you'll get your message across.

Diane [0:02:27]: And all of you did it.

Diane [0:02:29]: Right?

Diane [0:02:29]: It worked everybody made loads of money and we'll all work at unicorns and we lived happily ever after.

Diane [0:02:33]: Right?

Diane [0:02:34]: Wrong.

Diane [0:02:35]: Turns out, it's actually not as simple as that.

Diane [0:02:38]: And we have over optimized on all these things and now created a whole new set of problems.

Diane [0:02:43]: We've over optimized for clarity, and we've ended up with these vague generic promises that don't really tell anybody about our solution.

Diane [0:02:53]: How many times have you read something made easy.

Diane [0:02:56]: Right?

Diane [0:02:57]: Was invoicing that harder, like, how is it easy?

Diane [0:03:00]: I don't know.

Diane [0:03:01]: It doesn't really mean anything anymore.

Diane [0:03:02]: And we've over optimized for showing the value.

Diane [0:03:06]: And we've ended up with these, like, over height, overworked messages that don't really tell Anybody anything about the solution and are really confusing, you know, perm validated innovation into repeatable predictable revenue?

Diane [0:03:19]: Hell yeah, I want that.

Diane [0:03:20]: Hands up, I want some of that.

Diane [0:03:22]: But what does it actually mean?

Diane [0:03:23]: Might I have no idea.

Diane [0:03:25]: And we've over optimized on being compelling.

Diane [0:03:29]: But we've ended up with these kind of punchy, choppy headlines that read, like cryptic cross clues.

Dave [0:03:38]: This is...

Dave [0:03:38]: This is a real website.

Diane [0:03:39]: These are all real websites.

Diane [0:03:40]: Network, harmon, optimized live.

Diane [0:03:43]: Yes.

Diane [0:03:44]: Like, what does this mean?

Diane [0:03:47]: What does it mean?

Diane [0:03:49]: Nobody knows what it means, but it's provocative.

Diane [0:03:52]: Right?

Diane [0:03:52]: That is the problem.

Diane [0:03:55]: We have over optimized for everything, except meaning.

Diane [0:04:00]: And so our buyers, our customers are out there, like drowning, China decide if our solution is the right thing for them.

Diane [0:04:07]: And we're just saying so much putting so much out there, but actually communicating so little.

Diane [0:04:13]: We don't need to say more, we actually need to mean more.

Diane [0:04:17]: So there's a mean crisis in B2B marketing right now.

Diane [0:04:20]: Right?

Diane [0:04:21]: There is this huge kind of grand canyon disconnect between what we think we're saying and what our buyers are actually taking away.

Diane [0:04:29]: Now I'm sure that every single one of you here is marketing a really cool product or service that solves a genuinely valuable, problem for your customers.

Diane [0:04:39]: But often how we articulate that, causes fiction for our buyers and so our messages don't land.

Diane [0:04:44]: Right?

Diane [0:04:44]: They kind of end up in this disconnect.

Diane [0:04:46]: Now I have fallen victims to this too.

Diane [0:04:49]: So this is me.

Diane [0:04:50]: Five years ago.

Diane [0:04:51]: I think I took this picture about five years ago.

Diane [0:04:53]: Beads of sweat running down my face.

Diane [0:04:55]: So I was working on one of my first ever big website copy projects.

Diane [0:05:00]: A B2B marketing agency had hired me to refresh the copy and quote, quote, make it more compelling, solid brief.

Diane [0:05:07]: And so I followed all the advice, you know, I tried to create more value, make it punchy, make it compelling.

Diane [0:05:15]: And as we was sat there on the call, painstakingly going through the wireframe frames that I had, like, put together.

Diane [0:05:21]: We were going back and forth about word choice.

Diane [0:05:24]: You know Diane, I think fuel all your growth doesn't really sound right?

Diane [0:05:28]: How about we say, like, Turbo charge or Roi.

Diane [0:05:30]: You know, make your business work for you.

Diane [0:05:32]: It just sounds really conversational.

Diane [0:05:34]: So we were on this call going back and forth and back and forth about word choice.

Diane [0:05:41]: Right?

Diane [0:05:41]: And as we were, like, optimizing every single little word, I had this sinking feeling that we were essentially, just like cleaning the windows on a burning building.

Diane [0:05:52]: A burning building.

Diane [0:05:54]: I love to put this as my background in meetings as you will know.

Diane [0:05:57]: It's a great one.

Diane [0:05:59]: And so maybe this feels familiar for you, you know, maybe at some point you for launch copy or the copy on your website is, like, okay, but, you know, you know that it doesn't really hit the mark, or you worked on a campaign and you know, like, it doesn't really feel like us, but, you're not really sure what went wrong.

Diane [0:06:15]: Like, I thought I had done everything right.

Diane [0:06:17]: You know, we try to understand the audience and the market, the product the brand, we spoke to customers.

Diane [0:06:22]: But somewhere along the way, I had forgot to ask the most important question in marketing, which is what do we really mean?

Diane [0:06:32]: Right?

Diane [0:06:32]: What do we actually mean?

Diane [0:06:34]: And this is also like the Pg version of this question because I definitely asked this with a few more swear words in there as well.

Diane [0:06:40]: And so in that moment, I realized that what we were doing was solving the wrong problem.

Diane [0:06:46]: Right?

Diane [0:06:47]: Like many B2B companies, we weren't really fixing the root cause.

Diane [0:06:51]: And so we were just putting lipstick on a pig.

Diane [0:06:54]: Right?

Diane [0:06:55]: Trying to make something a bit prettier, but we hadn't really got to the root of things.

Diane [0:06:59]: And so I've realized over the years that, most copy problems are actually messaging problems in disguise.

Diane [0:07:06]: Right?

Diane [0:07:07]: And that's what we needed to fix first.

Diane [0:07:09]: Often the words that we look at and we blame, are just the symptom, and they're not really the root cause of that problem.

Diane [0:07:17]: So the way that I define messaging, I'm not gonna call you out and ask how you would define it, by the way Not gonna put anyone on the spot today.

Diane [0:07:24]: But in its simplest form, think of messaging as what we say, right, How we articulate the value of our products and services, and then copy then how we say that message and how we shake that.

Diane [0:07:35]: So over the past five years, I have focused exclusively on messaging for B, tech and digital service companies And I've become obsessed.

Diane [0:07:43]: Right?

Diane [0:07:44]: And I was like, why is it so hard.

Diane [0:07:45]: How can we get better at it?

Diane [0:07:47]: Where are we going wrong?

Diane [0:07:48]: And I've kind of cracked the code on a few things that I think we are missing out on on the way.

Diane [0:07:53]: So Today, for the rest of this talk, I wanna share kind of three fundamental barriers and gaps, but I think we're missing in our messaging.

Diane [0:08:00]: I'm gonna share a few ways to fix social a few examples along the way, and try to make this as tactical as possible so you can go away and start implementing some of this stuff.

Diane [0:08:10]: Next week and when you get home.

Diane [0:08:11]: So the first thing that our messaging is missing is a flagship message.

Diane [0:08:17]: This is the most common one that I see with companies that I work with, and in seems really simple.

Diane [0:08:23]: Sounds like it's gonna be simple and easy, but it's actually really not.

Diane [0:08:26]: Right?

Diane [0:08:27]: Because we need one overarching, clear message that kind of guides everything that all of our messaging ladders us up to.

Diane [0:08:34]: Now every company that I've worked with has struggled with this, and I think most B businesses are actually doing the exact opposite of this.

Diane [0:08:42]: So you know that feeling when you go to, like, an all you can eat buffet.

Diane [0:08:46]: Right?

Diane [0:08:47]: If you're anything like me when you have all of these options in front of you, you just like, take a little bit of everything and put them on your plates, and you end up with this plate like pile tie of random things the mis match that never should have gone together.

Diane [0:08:59]: What we do the same with our messaging.

Diane [0:09:01]: Right?

Diane [0:09:02]: We wanna talk about security, but we have to talk about ease of use, but don't forget efficiency and so we stuff in, like another message and another message another message, and it becomes really hard for a prospect to digest.

Diane [0:09:14]: So we end up with messaging b.

Diane [0:09:15]: Right?

Diane [0:09:16]: Messaging b is like, feature b, but for your marketing where our prospects can't really take away what we're trying to serve them.

Diane [0:09:23]: And there's a principle in psychology miller law, you might have noticed this is it's often and talked about in Ux.

Diane [0:09:30]: Where most people can't retain more than like, seven things in their working memory at any one time.

Diane [0:09:35]: Right?

Diane [0:09:35]: Give or take two.

Diane [0:09:36]: That's it.

Diane [0:09:37]: Nothing more.

Diane [0:09:38]: And so we really wanna avoid this situation of this mis mismatch buffet of messaging that messaging by committee.

Diane [0:09:47]: Right?

Diane [0:09:47]: That doesn't really say anything and usually pisses off someone along the way as well.

Diane [0:09:51]: So what should you be looking out for?

Diane [0:09:53]: So we can look out for things on, like, the macro level, but also on the micro level as well.

Diane [0:09:57]: Right?

Diane [0:09:57]: Telltale signs, things like too many ants in our copy too many commas, too many adjectives.

Diane [0:10:02]: If you are the fastest most accurate comprehensive solution on the market, which one are you?

Diane [0:10:08]: Right?

Diane [0:10:09]: And so what's the fix?

Diane [0:10:10]: I start with just one really simple question.

Diane [0:10:14]: Right?

Diane [0:10:14]: If you could be known for one thing, what would it be?

Diane [0:10:17]: Like, if I were to give, you know, sixty seconds to answer this yourself, would your team also gave the same answer.

Diane [0:10:24]: Right?

Diane [0:10:24]: In another question, what do you wanna own in customers minds.

Diane [0:10:28]: Right?

Diane [0:10:29]: When we think about that mental availability.

Diane [0:10:30]: Now when I ask some variation of this question to the companies I work with?

Diane [0:10:35]: We always have, like, a huge range of answers.

Diane [0:10:37]: Right?

Diane [0:10:38]: And I think that lack of alignment in the beginning is also a sign that we're not really going down that same path.

Diane [0:10:44]: So we can start there, but we really need to refine this, go a bit further and then shape that into a flagship message So I wanna show you three approaches to kind of find and refine that as well.

Diane [0:10:54]: Now the first way is to name your villain.

Diane [0:10:57]: Right?

Diane [0:10:57]: But the villain is not your competitor.

Diane [0:11:00]: Right?

Diane [0:11:01]: So I am not talking about an us versus them, but this is not Hubspot versus a salesforce and Mac versus...

Diane [0:11:06]: Sorry, Apple versus Microsoft.

Diane [0:11:08]: Right?

Diane [0:11:09]: This isn't the who and Mcdonald's wars.

Diane [0:11:12]: The villain is actually the cause of your buyers problems.

Diane [0:11:16]: And that key message that flagship message makes it easier for them to understand.

Diane [0:11:21]: So, you know, Loom, their villain is, like time sucking draining meetings.

Diane [0:11:24]: Right?

Diane [0:11:25]: Cloud zero, their villain is, like, unpredictable cloud billing.

Diane [0:11:29]: And so the message that they're leading with there's, like, unit economics is the way out of that.

Diane [0:11:34]: Right?

Diane [0:11:35]: Another way is to just simply sell the win.

Diane [0:11:37]: So, you know, you might be thinking, hey, well, we can't call out the old way, the outdated way of things So instead make a bold promise.

Diane [0:11:44]: Right?

Diane [0:11:45]: So copy hackers, their bold promise is and has been for ages become the most profitable person in the room.

Diane [0:11:51]: Like, it's not always on the website.

Diane [0:11:53]: It's not always on the homepage, but it's that through line message that translates through everything.

Diane [0:11:57]: Cx excel always talks about learning marketing from the top one percent.

Diane [0:12:02]: Right?

Diane [0:12:02]: So that shared point of view and that shared belief that they have with the audience as well is that to become great, you need to be great.

Diane [0:12:09]: Right So a couple of years who I worked with Cx on some of their messaging and copy on their product and brand marketing mini degrees.

Diane [0:12:15]: And some you might recognize this space.

Diane [0:12:18]: There he is.

Dave [0:12:20]: He looks way younger and less stressed in that photo.

Diane [0:12:23]: Right.

Diane [0:12:23]: And so because we has, like that really clear, simple flagship message, it was really easy to know, how do we position this product, how do we position the value?

Diane [0:12:32]: Right?

Diane [0:12:33]: And how do we talk about the value of this course?

Diane [0:12:35]: Right?

Diane [0:12:36]: So to become great if you need to learn from people who are.

Diane [0:12:39]: Great.

Diane [0:12:39]: It also helps you can just slap someone's face on the home page.

Diane [0:12:41]: Right?

Diane [0:12:42]: Another method is to just plant a flag.

Diane [0:12:45]: Just own one thing.

Diane [0:12:47]: Sometimes the strongest message is the simplest message.

Diane [0:12:50]: And so don't over complicate things.

Diane [0:12:53]: So, you know, when Superhuman first came to market, they didn't try to eat everything.

Diane [0:12:57]: They just said we have a fastest email experience ever.

Diane [0:13:00]: That's it.

Diane [0:13:01]: Like, they went in on speed, and they went all in on that.

Diane [0:13:03]: Their messaging has become a little bit Ai diluted, but, you know, it's still there with the speed.

Diane [0:13:07]: If you check it out.

Diane [0:13:08]: They're all in on speed.

Diane [0:13:09]: Whereas tutor went all in on privacy.

Diane [0:13:12]: They said if you want end to end encrypted email, we are the people to go to.

Diane [0:13:16]: That's it.

Diane [0:13:17]: So how would do we find that message that actually resonates.

Diane [0:13:21]: Right?

Diane [0:13:22]: Well, you wanna start with market signals, not with sticky notes?

Diane [0:13:26]: I hate to break it to you, but, you know, you can't workshop your way to good messaging, Unfortunately, most messages that really land and resonate with your market, actually come from research from buyers.

Diane [0:13:37]: So my process always starts with, speaking to customers, right, analyzing, looking for themes looking for patterns.

Diane [0:13:44]: And then mapping that out to our strategy as well.

Diane [0:13:47]: And yes, I do still get into the sticky behind the scenes actually going through quotes and going through gone calls and doing this manually even in the age of Ai.

Diane [0:13:58]: So I guess I got part way through but before saying Ai.

Diane [0:14:00]: So I know what you might be thinking.

Diane [0:14:03]: I'm gonna address the elephant in the room.

Diane [0:14:04]: I'm probably thinking.

Diane [0:14:05]: Okay.

Diane [0:14:05]: Sure, Diane.

Diane [0:14:06]: That sounds great, but, you know, this is gonna work for us.

Diane [0:14:09]: Right?

Diane [0:14:09]: We can't call out the villain.

Diane [0:14:11]: We're actually kind of a boring industry we're a boring company, and I kind of get this back a lot because I work with a lot of self described boring B2B businesses.

Diane [0:14:22]: Here's what I believe.

Diane [0:14:24]: I truly believe that there is no such thing.

Diane [0:14:26]: As a boring business.

Diane [0:14:28]: Right?

Diane [0:14:28]: You either solve the problem or you don't.

Diane [0:14:30]: So do you solve a problem?

Diane [0:14:33]: Yes or no.

Diane [0:14:33]: You're either the vitamin or you're the pain killer product.

Diane [0:14:37]: But if you actually have a solution that matters for your buyers, then it doesn't really matter, like, we can still get this Finding that flagship message isn't about having, like, the sexiest message.

Diane [0:14:47]: It's just about finding that vessel to actually better communicate with your audience.

Diane [0:14:51]: Right?

Diane [0:14:51]: So we're not trying to be flashy.

Diane [0:14:53]: You don't need the biggest budget.

Diane [0:14:54]: You just need conviction to get through.

Diane [0:14:57]: So let me show you this in action.

Diane [0:14:59]: So I worked with a content verification software recently.

Diane [0:15:02]: So they have a tool that a top pharma, medical device companies use to kind of proof read all of their labels and packaging before they go to print.

Diane [0:15:11]: Again, another company that said there's self described boring, although, I think if you're saving a company.

Diane [0:15:16]: Millions of dollars that probably it's not that boring of a problem to solve.

Diane [0:15:20]: And when they came to me, they were just saying everything.

Diane [0:15:23]: Right?

Diane [0:15:24]: They were talking about workload reduction, ease of use, messaging was everywhere, like, the whole buffet.

Diane [0:15:29]: There was no real hierarchy.

Diane [0:15:30]: And so what we did is, you know, we spoke to their customers and one thing that we heard over and over and over again was that, like, I'm terrified of making a mistake.

Diane [0:15:40]: Right, from their buyers.

Diane [0:15:41]: So everything else mattered, but this mattered the most.

Diane [0:15:46]: Right?

Diane [0:15:46]: Actually making sure that no errors got through any of those rounds across all of their Ic and across all of the roles that we're using their tool.

Diane [0:15:53]: So we knew...

Diane [0:15:54]: Like, we have to kind of really go in on accuracy and the product also backed it up.

Diane [0:16:01]: Right?

Diane [0:16:01]: We also had proof that their tool was actually more precise than the other competitors.

Diane [0:16:05]: So we've seen this in, like, win loss analysis.

Diane [0:16:08]: We've seen this in test that less errors went through.

Diane [0:16:11]: So we knew we wanted to hone in on accuracy, but we didn't know how to frame it.

Diane [0:16:15]: And so we decided to kind of strip everything back and really lean into a promise.

Diane [0:16:21]: So we kind of lent into this message be sure it's right.

Diane [0:16:25]: You know, be absolutely certain that your content is a hundred percent accurate.

Diane [0:16:29]: And so we translated that into various formats into content copy across their marketing.

Diane [0:16:35]: And on the homepage, we came up with this really great headline.

Diane [0:16:38]: Right?

Diane [0:16:39]: When it has to be right, teams use Tb.

Diane [0:16:41]: So we had one simple message that not only sells the promise of accuracy, but it taps into that feeling of certainty as well and reposition them as the leader.

Diane [0:16:51]: So that's kind of the power of having a flagship message across the board.

Diane [0:16:55]: So close that meeting gap.

Diane [0:16:58]: Right?

Diane [0:16:58]: I know often you'll hear.

Diane [0:17:00]: Right?

Diane [0:17:00]: It's just enough to be clear and be clear about your solution, but go beyond that and actually really narrow down.

Diane [0:17:06]: And ask these questions, You know, if you've been thinking about this one while I'm talking or you think you've got that message dialed in?

Diane [0:17:11]: Ask yourself, you know, is it memorable?

Diane [0:17:13]: Right?

Diane [0:17:13]: Would everyone across the team actually say it?

Diane [0:17:16]: Would they remember it?

Diane [0:17:17]: Could people explain it?

Diane [0:17:19]: Right?

Diane [0:17:20]: Is it pro?

Diane [0:17:21]: Is it actually coming from the value of your product?

Diane [0:17:23]: And, you know, does it differentiate you?

Diane [0:17:25]: Does it actually push your brand forward as well?

Diane [0:17:28]: So the second thing that messaging is missing is messaging a balance?

Diane [0:17:32]: Right?

Diane [0:17:33]: Because we can have, like, a clear message locked in, but if we're not really speaking to that right level of detail to our buyers, then Messaging can kind of fall in that gap.

Diane [0:17:41]: Now one of the reasons that we struggle with this debate, we struggle with this is because of, like, the most exhausting debate in marketing, which is one camp for saying, you know, people don't buy products.

Diane [0:17:53]: Right?

Diane [0:17:54]: They buy outcomes.

Diane [0:17:55]: They buy solutions to their problems, so just talk about the benefits.

Diane [0:17:58]: And then on the other side, you have the other candidates that's like People don't care about that, show them the product, show them the features.

Diane [0:18:05]: We have been arguing about this for years.

Diane [0:18:07]: So this is a post like, five test four days because I took a screenshot.

Diane [0:18:11]: This is five years ago, marketing millennials posted, you know, Sell benefits, not features, and there are thousands of comments, thousands of likes, hundreds of comments, marketers in there, like picking sides and battling out so right about which ones more important.

Diane [0:18:25]: But the reality is, like, we actually need both.

Diane [0:18:28]: Right?

Diane [0:18:28]: Benefit camp is right.

Diane [0:18:30]: Benefit camp is right because we don't really buy things based on logic.

Diane [0:18:35]: We buy things based on emotion, and then we justify them.

Diane [0:18:38]: How many times have you picked a vendor that was the biggest in the market just because you didn't really wanna take the risk with the small guy.

Diane [0:18:44]: Right?

Diane [0:18:44]: But we also know that our B2B buyers are not shopping for some huge magic transformation.

Diane [0:18:50]: Sometimes our buyers are out there with, like, a vendor, spreadsheet, and they're just chicken boxes.

Diane [0:18:55]: Right?

Diane [0:18:55]: So we need to have that balance like, I discovered recent really cool way to think about this.

Diane [0:19:00]: I discovered something called like, narrative distance.

Diane [0:19:03]: So if we have any book lovers in the room, like anybody who has a bit of a book worm, not business books.

Diane [0:19:08]: I'm not found of our books, novels.

Dave [0:19:10]: I'm reading Harry Potter right now Man years Ago.

Diane [0:19:12]: Nice.

Diane [0:19:12]: Alright.

Diane [0:19:13]: Another.

Diane [0:19:14]: So fiction writers, use this thing called narrative distance, which is really cool.

Diane [0:19:19]: Right?

Diane [0:19:19]: So sometimes they zoom all the way in on the details, and they talk about, you know, the sizzling bacon in the pan and that charred smell, like, drifting through the room.

Diane [0:19:27]: And sometimes they zoom out a little bit.

Diane [0:19:30]: Right?

Diane [0:19:30]: And they talk about, you know, a man walked into a diner and, like, plump himself down and ordered a black coffee.

Diane [0:19:35]: And then sometimes they zoom all the way out, right?

Diane [0:19:38]: To talk about the scene and the setting of the neon lights of a diner in the distance.

Diane [0:19:43]: And great stories have to have that balance.

Diane [0:19:46]: Like, they have to zoom in, and they have to zoom out.

Diane [0:19:49]: If we spend too long in the details.

Diane [0:19:51]: Right?

Diane [0:19:52]: Numbers become these mean things that are really hard to follow.

Diane [0:19:55]: And if we spend too much time zoomed out, we don't actually make any connection, right, with the characters in the book, and it's kind of the same with our messaging.

Diane [0:20:03]: Our messaging has to zoom in and Zoom out and it can't spend too long in any of those one layers.

Diane [0:20:09]: But when we talk about benefits, right?

Diane [0:20:13]: Benefits and outcomes as marketers.

Diane [0:20:15]: Often we are not talking about the same thing at all.

Diane [0:20:18]: So most of the time when we're talking about benefits, you're actually talking about, like, these high level big picture outcomes.

Diane [0:20:25]: Right?

Diane [0:20:26]: But there are actually so many layers that we've kind of skipped in the middle.

Diane [0:20:30]: So this is kind of how I map out messaging along the spectrum.

Diane [0:20:34]: And messaging builds up, right?

Diane [0:20:36]: It builds up and we start with, like, our product, or our service components, and we can map those all the way out into actually, you know, those big picture results at the end.

Diane [0:20:46]: Alright.

Diane [0:20:46]: Let me show you an example of this.

Diane [0:20:48]: So toggle time tracking software.

Diane [0:20:50]: I don't know anyone uses like in time tracking or something.

Diane [0:20:53]: Hey.

Diane [0:20:53]: We got some from toggle.

Diane [0:20:54]: Oh, okay.

Diane [0:20:55]: Just a big...

Diane [0:20:56]: Just a productivity fan, just the nerds like me.

Diane [0:21:00]: Yeah.

Diane [0:21:01]: Like, let's check our time.

Diane [0:21:02]: Yeah.

Diane [0:21:03]: My people.

Diane [0:21:03]: So if we zoom in, right, what the feature level here.

Diane [0:21:08]: That might be, you know, automated time categorization.

Diane [0:21:11]: Way too techie, like, I have to decode.

Diane [0:21:13]: Like, what does that mean for me?

Diane [0:21:14]: If we zoom all the way out to that big picture outcome.

Diane [0:21:18]: Right?

Diane [0:21:18]: It could be...

Diane [0:21:19]: Well, Toggle helps you optimize your team workflows.

Diane [0:21:21]: Which could be any single productivity tool on the market, like, how many websites are talking about optimizing your team workflow.

Diane [0:21:28]: But maybe if we zoom enter that, like, first benefit layer.

Diane [0:21:32]: Right?

Diane [0:21:32]: Maybe the value of this is know exactly where your team's time is going.

Diane [0:21:36]: Now if I'm a team manager, and I'm looking for this, like, then I care about this message, and it's a meaningful message.

Diane [0:21:42]: Right?

Diane [0:21:42]: Actually cuts through the noise.

Diane [0:21:43]: And then beyond this, we can support this with the action, we can support this with proof.

Diane [0:21:48]: Right?

Diane [0:21:49]: So we can zoom in and out at that right level.

Diane [0:21:51]: Now why does this matter?

Diane [0:21:52]: Right?

Diane [0:21:53]: This matters getting into the weeds and the details of this matters because every single one of our products and services all lead to the same high level outcomes.

Diane [0:22:02]: Right?

Diane [0:22:02]: All lead to the same generic things, we can all eventually say that we save you time.

Diane [0:22:08]: We help you increase your money, increase revenue, we help you become more productive.

Diane [0:22:12]: So when we lead at that wrong layer of Zoom, that's one of the reasons why we all kind of sound like each other.

Diane [0:22:18]: Right?

Diane [0:22:19]: We're often talking at that wrong layer, and that's why when Land on a website, you have no idea what they do because they're not really speaking at that right layer of Zoom.

Diane [0:22:26]: And all that stuff, like, it affects our buyers figuring out if our products are the right fit for them, affects like things like our pipeline right as well and our marketing effort.

Diane [0:22:35]: I run messaging tests with companies, and it's always really interesting to, like, see the tension of this as well.

Diane [0:22:41]: Right?

Diane [0:22:42]: So buyers are always saying things like, well, on the one hand, like, it's too technical.

Diane [0:22:46]: I don't really understand that, and then on the other what's the business need being resolved.

Diane [0:22:50]: So your buyers have, like, different needs by they're looking for different things.

Diane [0:22:55]: But remember, you know, copy problems, most of them are actually messaging problems.

Diane [0:22:59]: Right?

Diane [0:23:00]: So we really need to address that needs.

Diane [0:23:02]: So let me show you this an example of this in action.

Diane [0:23:04]: So I recently worked with a demand planning and forecasting software for consumer brands.

Diane [0:23:09]: And when they came to me a lot of that messaging was like really high level.

Diane [0:23:13]: Right?

Diane [0:23:14]: They were promising to free your team and that you could move with confidence which again don't really know what that means, and they were promising the classic, you know, fast actionable insights.

Diane [0:23:25]: Hands anyone got actionable insights from their website right now?

Diane [0:23:28]: You I sort of can't go up and then it went right down.

Diane [0:23:32]: This still counts by sorry.

Diane [0:23:34]: It still counts.

Diane [0:23:35]: Listen, we've all said it.

Diane [0:23:36]: We've all said things like these before?

Diane [0:23:38]: It's that easy first step.

Diane [0:23:40]: Right?

Diane [0:23:41]: But you have to take a step back and be like, well, what does this actually mean for our buyers.

Diane [0:23:44]: So I spent time, like, speaking to their customers to really understand, like, what were I doing?

Diane [0:23:49]: What were they doing before and what value were they getting from this solution?

Diane [0:23:52]: And so what I heard was their customers were spending time, like, uploading spreadsheets and downloading them every single week?

Diane [0:23:59]: Some of them were spending, like, three to five hours every single week, pulling data from, like, five different tools and then aggregating them, like to get a report.

Diane [0:24:08]: So when we look at it this way, the value of that is so much more than just fast actionable insights.

Diane [0:24:15]: Right?

Diane [0:24:15]: It isn't just free your team.

Diane [0:24:17]: And so what we did is we kind of dialed in on that right zoom.

Diane [0:24:20]: And we realized the right focus was that their platform helped you consolidate all your data sources in one place, and they actually pulled every warehouse and supply into one dashboard Right?

Diane [0:24:31]: Giving them a real time view of sales and inventory status without all of those Cv uploads or jumping between tools.

Diane [0:24:38]: Right?

Diane [0:24:39]: Much clearer and much more meaningful, talking about the exact same value of that product, But now we actually have the right focus.

Diane [0:24:46]: Right?

Diane [0:24:47]: And then we can shape that into many different ways in our copy.

Diane [0:24:50]: So balance your messaging.

Diane [0:24:53]: Right?

Diane [0:24:54]: I know we talk about showing the value and showing the benefits of our solution, but we need to go beyond to that initial value.

Diane [0:25:00]: Right?

Diane [0:25:00]: Actually find that right level.

Diane [0:25:02]: So maybe do this yourself, like, check it out, like, whatever you've got on your website right now, maybe a feature that you're leading with.

Diane [0:25:08]: Maybe it's a big picture outcome that you're leading with.

Diane [0:25:11]: Map it out.

Diane [0:25:12]: Right?

Diane [0:25:12]: Map it out along that spectrum, infuse it and actually make sure that you're informing the decisions of what you're saying with actual customer insight and customer words.

Diane [0:25:22]: Right, don't guess the value that people are getting from your product.

Diane [0:25:25]: And then find what clicks.

Diane [0:25:27]: Right?

Diane [0:25:27]: And try to get a balance with that Zoom.

Diane [0:25:29]: So the final thing that your messaging is missing is your bias framing.

Diane [0:25:34]: So I went back and forth about kind of putting this in the talk because there's a little bit of a nuance here.

Diane [0:25:40]: We're kind of bridging the gap between, like, copy and messaging and kind of positioning.

Diane [0:25:43]: But I think this one's really important I think it's really overlooked because you can have, you know, clear message, you can balance, like your features and benefits, but your messaging can still fall at that last hurdle like, if it's not really speaking to your buyer's customer reality, right, and their current perspective right now.

Diane [0:26:00]: So I have a question for everybody who's in a relationship.

Diane [0:26:04]: Right?

Diane [0:26:04]: I just wanna know if this is not just me, but Does anybody else's partner think that you can read their mind.

Diane [0:26:11]: Does this happen to anyone else where, right, my...

Diane [0:26:16]: Yeah.

Diane [0:26:16]: You could see your part of set right next to you, so you're throwing there under the bus?

Diane [0:26:20]: So my plan he does this all the time.

Diane [0:26:22]: He'll launch into something, like, mid conversation and think I have the contest.

Diane [0:26:26]: So he's like, oh, they got back to me and they decided they wanna wait.

Diane [0:26:30]: And I'm like, who got back to you about what waits for what what are you talking about.

Diane [0:26:35]: I have no idea.

Diane [0:26:36]: He always jumps in and thinks that I know what he's talking about.

Diane [0:26:39]: And I, on the other hand, I'm like, the complete opposite of this, which is pretty terrible because I spend like, my days working with companies to simplify the messaging and cut the fluff.

Diane [0:26:49]: But with my friends and family, I'm actually the worst, like chronic over explain.

Diane [0:26:54]: So I will go into a story and I will give you every bit of context that you do not need.

Diane [0:26:58]: So I'm like, oh, do you remember, Sarah, like, we met her at the conference last year.

Diane [0:27:03]: She's read hair and she, like works in Fintech and her husband is Italian, and he makes a great catch pepper.

Diane [0:27:07]: Anyway, like, she wasn't there, but, you know, and it's like...

Diane [0:27:11]: So I am the opposite.

Diane [0:27:13]: The absolute opposite.

Diane [0:27:15]: And both of us are just looking at each other.

Diane [0:27:18]: Like, what are you talking about here?

Diane [0:27:21]: And the thing is, like, we're both really frustrating to each other, but we do the same thing with our messaging.

Diane [0:27:27]: Right?

Diane [0:27:28]: Some of our messaging just jumps in and speaks to our buyers as if they have all of the context.

Diane [0:27:34]: Right?

Diane [0:27:34]: Start a conversation that they're not actually ready for.

Diane [0:27:36]: And then some of our messaging gives way too much context and way too much build when our buyers don't need it at all.

Diane [0:27:43]: And both of those cases were kind of speaking at cross purposes.

Diane [0:27:46]: Even if we're saying a valuable message.

Diane [0:27:49]: Here's why this matter.

Diane [0:27:51]: So, went into the study of b Saas buyers last year, and it's was really interesting because fifty four percent of buyers, go and jump into, like, a category of search.

Diane [0:28:01]: Right at the beginning.

Diane [0:28:03]: So that shows, you know, mental availability is important.

Diane [0:28:05]: Right?

Diane [0:28:06]: Probably Seo is also important so to make sure that you're part of that search.

Diane [0:28:09]: But after that, Then they only actually shortlist, like three vendors to get on a demo with.

Diane [0:28:16]: Right?

Diane [0:28:16]: Seventy eight percent of buyers are then shortlist listing just to speak to three companies.

Diane [0:28:21]: Now, at that stage, the website is still one of the most important marketing assets.

Diane [0:28:27]: Right?

Diane [0:28:27]: It's really important to make sure that we're speaking to our buyers who are in that selection process.

Diane [0:28:32]: But it needs to focus on the right things to help our buyers make that decision and actually move forward with us.

Diane [0:28:38]: A lot of our messages miss the mark because our buyers are coming to us with a bunch of baggage.

Diane [0:28:46]: Right?

Diane [0:28:46]: Our buyers have expectations, based on, you know, past experiences with other companies like ours, they have assumptions, they have gaps that they're trying to fill in.

Diane [0:28:56]: And when our messages actually ignore that, and ignore that reality, we end up kind of missing the mark.

Diane [0:29:02]: Now, one of the biggest factors in this is our buyers, stage of awareness.

Diane [0:29:07]: Hands up, how many of you are aware of the five stages of were wear.

Diane [0:29:11]: Nice.

Diane [0:29:11]: Alright.

Diane [0:29:12]: I love being at a rear of marketers you guys are my people.

Diane [0:29:14]: So this, like, relic of a bike on time.

Diane [0:29:18]: Right?

Diane [0:29:18]: I think it was created in, like, nineteen sixty something by Sc schwartz.

Diane [0:29:22]: It's still valuable today.

Diane [0:29:24]: Like, there are a lot of frameworks that I think have kind of, you know, haven't tested the test of time, but this one is still really valuable.

Diane [0:29:31]: Right?

Diane [0:29:31]: And it's valuable because it helps us kind of how we frame our messaging for our buyers.

Diane [0:29:36]: Now Is this how people buy today?

Diane [0:29:40]: Hell no.

Diane [0:29:41]: Right?

Diane [0:29:41]: This isn't a buyer journey.

Diane [0:29:42]: Like bio journey isn't linear?

Diane [0:29:44]: There are hundreds of touch points.

Diane [0:29:45]: Right?

Diane [0:29:46]: And we're still trying to find out, like attribution, but that's not what this is about.

Diane [0:29:49]: This helps us frame our messaging to where the majority of buyers, the majority of our customers sit.

Diane [0:29:56]: Right?

Diane [0:29:57]: So we really wanna make sure that we're really making sure that we speak to a buyers that are either problem aware, solution aware or product wear.

Diane [0:30:04]: So let me kinda show you a few examples of this.

Diane [0:30:07]: So for a problem aware buyers.

Diane [0:30:09]: Right?

Diane [0:30:10]: We have to obviously highlight the problem.

Diane [0:30:12]: We have to improvise with that struggle, and we really need to show that our solutions speaks to that pain.

Diane [0:30:17]: Now a great example of this is shields, or shields like Linkedin analytics.

Diane [0:30:22]: They call out that knowledge gap.

Diane [0:30:24]: Right?

Diane [0:30:24]: So if you're spending time on Linkedin, you've know you've got the content now you need the data.

Diane [0:30:28]: They're speaking to an audience of creators who are probably thinking, yeah.

Diane [0:30:32]: I wish I actually had more data, and I wish I knew like why things are performing why they aren't.

Diane [0:30:37]: So this has kind of perfect game focused, problem aware messaging.

Diane [0:30:41]: Condo goes a little bit of a step further.

Diane [0:30:44]: This is a really awesome headline Right?

Diane [0:30:46]: Linkedin inbox shit.

Diane [0:30:48]: Alright?

Diane [0:30:48]: If you agree with that, I know a lot of us spend way too much time on Linkedin.

Diane [0:30:52]: So if you agree with that, right?

Diane [0:30:54]: You've got that buy in, but maybe you haven't actually started looking for a solution that problem.

Diane [0:30:59]: Like, you didn't know that there was an alternative inbox so then they kind of hook you in.

Diane [0:31:03]: Right?

Diane [0:31:04]: It's kind of pain focused problem aware messaging.

Diane [0:31:06]: But when we get to our solution aware buyers, like, if our majority of our audience and our customers are around that solution where stage, we have to obviously position ourselves within that solution category.

Diane [0:31:19]: Right?

Diane [0:31:20]: We have to show how we deliver that value and make sure that we back it up.

Diane [0:31:24]: A great example of this is paddle.

Diane [0:31:26]: So peddle knows that their audience knows merchant of record solutions.

Diane [0:31:30]: Right?

Diane [0:31:30]: They show who therefore, why they're the best and they back it up with proof throughout their whole website and also through a lot of their marketing as well.

Diane [0:31:37]: They don't need to ag the pain.

Diane [0:31:40]: They don't really need to tell me why you have a problem.

Diane [0:31:42]: Right?

Diane [0:31:43]: They can go straight in and say, hey, when you're shopping in this solution, we are the right.

Diane [0:31:47]: Person for you.

Diane [0:31:48]: Now, when it gets to our product wear, buyers, this is a little bit more interesting because at this stage, we have to differentiate.

Diane [0:31:55]: Right?

Diane [0:31:56]: We need to differentiate our products and services across the board, obviously, But for our product aware buyers, we really need to show why are we different or better than the competitive alternatives.

Diane [0:32:06]: And even more importantly, if we can, show me also why they fall short.

Diane [0:32:11]: Right?

Diane [0:32:12]: Why they actually don't deliver on the promises that you say you can.

Diane [0:32:15]: A really great example of this is Fathom.

Diane [0:32:18]: Right?

Diane [0:32:19]: Fathom analytics.

Diane [0:32:20]: So Fathom is, you know, up against the single biggest category leader.

Diane [0:32:25]: Right?

Diane [0:32:26]: So if I'm landing here, I'm obviously thinking, why should I choose with you over Google analytics.

Diane [0:32:31]: They don't bury that.

Diane [0:32:32]: They lead with that.

Diane [0:32:33]: They go in with that straight away, and they don't shy away from it.

Diane [0:32:36]: Right?

Diane [0:32:36]: Now if they had spent time calling out to the pain and a problem of analytics, there'd be a bit of a mismatch of messaging there.

Diane [0:32:43]: The reason this is so important, like really understanding our by a stage of awareness is because this shade so much more than the framing of our message.

Diane [0:32:52]: The stage of awareness also shapes what messages we prioritize.

Diane [0:32:57]: It shapes how detailed our messaging is as well.

Diane [0:33:01]: It shapes the order of messages that we put on the page.

Diane [0:33:05]: This is also why I hate templates.

Diane [0:33:08]: Copywriting writing, like, the homepage, website templates are the worst thing there is no such thing as a one size fits all template for your website, and often if you're following templates.

Diane [0:33:18]: Right?

Diane [0:33:19]: It's very easy to, like, comment comments for a lead magnet on Linkedin like, send me the best B website template.

Diane [0:33:25]: But if you do that, often, when you follow best practices for everyone, you can be causing friction for the majority of your buyers as well.

Diane [0:33:32]: Right?

Diane [0:33:33]: And sometimes, you know, it's just a little bit of an issue, but sometimes it's actually much bigger, like, brand damage as well.

Diane [0:33:40]: So let me show you a quick example of this.

Diane [0:33:42]: So I worked with a digital asset management software, a while back and, you know, they're operating in a pretty saturated category.

Diane [0:33:50]: Right?

Diane [0:33:51]: And when they came to me a lot of their messaging was really around, like, the category.

Diane [0:33:55]: Right?

Diane [0:33:56]: You know, like, we are the better, more streamline streamlined digital asset management tool, which just fine.

Diane [0:34:01]: But it was causing a lot of friction for their buyers.

Diane [0:34:03]: Right?

Diane [0:34:04]: So technically accurate, but their buyers are thinking, well, are you kind of an enterprise solution, maybe it's a lot more complicated than what I need.

Diane [0:34:12]: So I asked them, hey, where are your buyers actually switching from?

Diane [0:34:16]: You know, a lot of your, like, what were they using before.

Diane [0:34:19]: And they said to me they head marketing was like, well, most of our customers are not actually switching from, like another dam.

Diane [0:34:25]: You know, they're coming from dropbox from Drive from using we transfer links, like messy setup.

Diane [0:34:31]: They don't have anything in place.

Diane [0:34:32]: And so, I realized we needed to lean more into that actual reality of their buyers instead of just talking about this huge category solution.

Diane [0:34:39]: So, you know, we spoke to customers and we heard, hey, you know, we don't want our stuff on drive anymore.

Diane [0:34:44]: Like it's chaotic.

Diane [0:34:45]: It's messy We have these huge we transfer links.

Diane [0:34:49]: A lot of them actually pick their tool because of the aesthetics interestingly.

Diane [0:34:53]: Like, often we think that people use our stuff for, like, the right reasons, but in their case, it it's just like, hey, this looks nice.

Diane [0:34:59]: Like, this is where we want to put all of our images of videos, And, you know, they said that kind of made them feel at home.

Diane [0:35:05]: Right?

Diane [0:35:05]: They actually...

Diane [0:35:06]: All of the teams can use this solution, and it was like a nice place to work.

Diane [0:35:09]: And so we shifted a lot of that messaging to frame that reality.

Diane [0:35:13]: Right?

Diane [0:35:14]: We actually called out the competitive alternative.

Diane [0:35:17]: Right?

Diane [0:35:17]: We said, you know, move on from Dropbox and drive.

Diane [0:35:20]: We lent into the emotional contrast as well of, you know, that chaos before and actually having your stuff in that actual home.

Diane [0:35:27]: And we also kinda showed them how simple it was as well.

Diane [0:35:30]: So close that meeting gap.

Diane [0:35:33]: Right?

Diane [0:35:33]: We can talk about being clear and getting a message across, but we really need to also focus on our buyer's actual perspective and their reality So test it out, you know, do a quick pressure test on a lot of your on marketing as well and ask, you know, where are most of our customers what stage of awareness?

Diane [0:35:49]: Are they in?

Diane [0:35:49]: Are the messages that we're putting out there really speaking to that actual stage?

Diane [0:35:54]: And are we addressing those objections, those are good concerns and those assumptions that they're feeling as well.

Diane [0:36:00]: So these are things that, you know, we're missing in our messaging.

Diane [0:36:03]: So, you know, next time you hear advice, right, from someone like me, from a, copywriter or a messaging experts saying, you know, be clear, be compelling, show the value.

Diane [0:36:13]: Maybe it isn't that, you know, your copy is the problem.

Diane [0:36:17]: It might be that your messaging is a problem, and that's kind of what we need to fix.

Diane [0:36:20]: But if we per slide, you know, the templates, the frameworks all of the advice and the tips that I given you.

Diane [0:36:26]: Really what we need to focus on in our messaging is just meaning.

Diane [0:36:29]: Right?

Diane [0:36:30]: Just really focusing on what are we trying to say before we shift how we say it.

Diane [0:36:36]: So I just wanna leave you with one really simple question.

Diane [0:36:38]: You know, next time you're working on, you know, a campaign.

Diane [0:36:42]: Right?

Diane [0:36:42]: Next time you're writing copy or a headline.

Diane [0:36:44]: Right?

Diane [0:36:45]: Just ask really simple question.

Diane [0:36:46]: Right?

Diane [0:36:47]: What do we really mean?

Diane [0:36:48]: What do we actually mean?

Diane [0:36:50]: Alright.

Diane [0:36:51]: Thank you, guys.

Dave [0:36:55]: But you gotta do questions.

Dave [0:36:56]: We're gonna be quite...

Dave [0:36:57]: You're gonna do...

Dave [0:36:57]: So good.

Dave [0:36:59]: Can I give you my favorite note?

Dave [0:37:00]: Yeah.

Dave [0:37:01]: The need for a flagship message.

Dave [0:37:02]: Did people like, hit...

Dave [0:37:04]: Hey with that one because I think a lot of people...

Dave [0:37:06]: That this is if you could be known for one thing, what could it be?

Dave [0:37:09]: Right?

Dave [0:37:09]: Because then, like, you sit in that executive meeting and it's, like, you know what the answer is, but then the Ceo or whoever is like, well, but we also serve this persona and we also serve this persona and it's like, I read this Roy Williams, the wizard of ads and he talks about, like, the risk of insult is the price of clarity.

Dave [0:37:24]: And so you risk insulting the other people, but if you can be specific to that one and Great.

Dave [0:37:28]: That was...

Diane [0:37:29]: Argue when you have shifting priorities.

Diane [0:37:30]: Like, we need to run after this thing and that thing, but, like, there has to be that flagship thing, but it's just easy for everything...

Dave [0:37:36]: You Alright.

Dave [0:37:36]: Actually delivered Okay.

Dave [0:37:37]: So, I wanna do Q and a.

Dave [0:37:38]: Just quick housekeeping.

Dave [0:37:39]: I wanna questions with Diane.

Dave [0:37:40]: One of the things that I like about drives is we don't ask you to sit for that long.

Dave [0:37:44]: So it's usually, like, you know, two speakers, then we have a lot of break and launch and all that stuff coming up.

Dave [0:37:48]: So let's do some good questions for Diane that's on your mind right now.

Dave [0:37:52]: Wants to go first.

Dave [0:37:52]: Cool.

Diane [0:37:53]: Thank you, Diane.

Diane [0:37:54]: That was awesome.

Diane [0:37:54]: My name is Dash.

Diane [0:37:56]: And my question is, we've seen that, like, in B2B b Saas.

Diane [0:38:00]: When you have one product, your homepage can be crystal clear.

Diane [0:38:03]: But then as your company grows and evolves and you launch new products and to different buying committees, everything kind of morrison into platform messaging?

Diane [0:38:12]: Yep.

Diane [0:38:13]: For the clients that you work with that do platform messaging?

Diane [0:38:16]: How do you make that sing?

Diane [0:38:18]: Yeah.

Diane [0:38:19]: This is the classic situation which is, you know, you grow, everything is diluted, you're offering more things.

Diane [0:38:25]: I think it also speaks to, like, the homepage cannot do everything.

Diane [0:38:28]: Right?

Diane [0:38:29]: Like, when we're talking about messaging, like, we're talking about top line company messaging that should function across the business.

Diane [0:38:34]: Your homepage is just that front door.

Diane [0:38:37]: Right?

Diane [0:38:37]: So in that case, you're have home homepage really need to be doing the job of actually pushing people through to where they need to go.

Diane [0:38:43]: And so when I work with companies that are, you know, kind of platform where we have a multiple suite.

Diane [0:38:47]: One, we also need to find, like, that core, like, that through line.

Diane [0:38:51]: So either it's, like, the problem that we're solving across the board for everyone, so we can speak to that.

Diane [0:38:56]: Or we also need to, like, funnel people through a lot quicker.

Diane [0:38:58]: Right?

Diane [0:38:59]: The reality I also see is, like, are you actually a platform?

Diane [0:39:03]: Like, are you really a suite of products?

Diane [0:39:05]: Or are you just, like, one product that you're trying to, like, position in all of these different ways.

Diane [0:39:10]: So I think sometimes there is also the positioning question, Like, it's kinda garbage and garbage out.

Diane [0:39:15]: So a lot of times, like, work companies in my question.

Diane [0:39:17]: They're like, oh, we have all of these different products I'm, like, are they the same.

Diane [0:39:20]: So, you know, like, is it really a different suite?

Diane [0:39:23]: But, yeah, you happy...

Diane [0:39:24]: It can't do everything.

Diane [0:39:25]: Right?

Diane [0:39:25]: So I think it also needs to be clear on, like, what is that common point that we have across the board?

Diane [0:39:30]: What is that key message that we're speaking to?

Diane [0:39:33]: And then how do we structure that?

Diane [0:39:34]: We're not trying to speak to everyone that we funnel through.

Diane [0:39:37]: So usually then, what I would do is, like, prioritize, getting people through to the right page on that website much more quickly.

Diane [0:39:43]: So the thing that there's two approaches there, there's the messaging side of things, and then there's actual, like, the structure and navigation of your website as well.

Dan [0:39:50]: I’m Dan, first of all, you spoke to my soul.

Dan [0:39:53]: So

Dan [0:39:53]: I appreciate it.

Dan [0:39:53]: As Of my for Guy.

Diane [0:39:57]: Yeah.

Dan [0:39:57]: I feel heard.

Dan [0:39:58]: We can hug it.

Diane [0:40:00]: We hug it out.

Diane [0:40:01]: So.

Diane [0:40:01]: I feel way.

Diane [0:40:02]: I feel like there's some pain here.

Diane [0:40:03]: But yeah.

Diane [0:40:03]: Well, how could I help?

Dan [0:40:07]: I do not have actionable insights on my website anymore.

Dan [0:40:10]: Ulta let's say that.

Dan [0:40:11]: Okay.

Dan [0:40:11]: Which is good good progress.

Dan [0:40:13]: Slightly different turn from the platform question, but it's a similar thing because I think there's a lot to think in there.

Dan [0:40:19]: Category.

Dan [0:40:20]: Yep.

Dan [0:40:21]: So I had the special privilege of have of being a category builder.

Dan [0:40:27]: Which means before even talking about why and how and what it gives you and when impact it's, like, what the hell is this I don't have a budget line for that.

Diane [0:40:37]: Right?

Dan [0:40:37]: I don't know what you're selling.

Dan [0:40:38]: And we run to this issue of, I need to sell you on what it is you realize now you need to have.

Diane [0:40:46]: Mh.

Dan [0:40:46]: But then also very quickly why it matters to you before you get...

Dan [0:40:50]: Distracted and move away.

Dan [0:40:51]: Mh.

Dan [0:40:51]: And it...

Dan [0:40:52]: The Zoom in Zoom out part.

Dan [0:40:54]: Right?

Dan [0:40:54]: The narrative distance was the big part of that to me of, like, how do I make sure you know what we're talking about, but also know enough about what it actually is or what it could give you.

Dan [0:41:04]: Yeah.

Dan [0:41:05]: Before you go away.

Diane [0:41:07]: Right.

Dan [0:41:08]: And is there a formula?

Dan [0:41:08]: Is there a kind of a way that you guide people through that when it comes to category where what is just as big of a question as why?

Diane [0:41:17]: Yeah.

Diane [0:41:17]: That's a huge question.

Dan [0:41:19]: We can talk about.

Diane [0:41:19]: I think yeah.

Diane [0:41:20]: I was like, alright.

Diane [0:41:21]: Let me gather of my thoughts on this because I could I, we could talk about carrie recreation for an hour, and, that's like a whole of and talk.

Diane [0:41:26]: I'm like, I don't know.

Diane [0:41:27]: We all need to be doing that.

Diane [0:41:28]: Okay.

Diane [0:41:29]: So I think sometimes we need to, like, step away from the category conversation a little bit, and I think I don't think that that's the right messaging lens for a lot of companies.

Diane [0:41:38]: You know, this is, like, we're kind of touching on positioning, Right now.

Diane [0:41:41]: We've got April later or tomorrow.

Diane [0:41:42]: Right?

Diane [0:41:43]: And it's, like, you know, who you're competing against the actual competitive alternatives puts you in a box and brings a whole bunch of assumptions with it.

Diane [0:41:50]: And so if it's a very clear category that you're operating in, sometimes that in the right message to lead with.

Diane [0:41:55]: But I often think with companies it's a lot more valuable to actually call out, like, the specific thing that you are replacing.

Diane [0:42:02]: Right?

Diane [0:42:02]: What is it that I was actually doing or using before?

Diane [0:42:06]: And then how does your solution or your service like, come in and help me solve that?

Diane [0:42:10]: And so with some companies, yes, we're gonna lean on the category and we're gonna try and ride that wave up to the top.

Diane [0:42:16]: And for others, it doesn't make any sense.

Diane [0:42:17]: You know, the digital asset management pool that I work with, like, we shifted that messaging completely.

Diane [0:42:22]: Like, there was no point trying to go, like elbow to Elbow, we really needed to speak to.

Diane [0:42:27]: Like, this is how you're doing it before, and this is how you should be doing it now, and it just so happens that we're dam.

Diane [0:42:33]: And so I don't know.

Diane [0:42:34]: I think that that category conversation.

Diane [0:42:36]: I think, you know, we have to be aware of where we're sitting and how we're speaking.

Diane [0:42:39]: Within that, right and how people are speaking about is.

Diane [0:42:42]: But the reality for most companies is that, like, particularly well tech and sas, like, mostly you're competing with a spreadsheet or nothing or, like, an intern.

Diane [0:42:49]: You know, Like, that's the actual reality reality.

Diane [0:42:51]: And so we can get caught up in, like, the category creation language, but probably, it's not always the right conversation to have.

Participant 2 [0:42:58]: Great presentation there.

Participant 2 [0:42:59]: And thank you.

Participant 2 [0:42:59]: I know are already full already.

Participant 2 [0:43:01]: So I'm in dimension and marketing up.

Participant 2 [0:43:03]: So my focus is on website conversions.

Participant 2 [0:43:05]: So I love the phone messaging.

Participant 2 [0:43:06]: Right?

Participant 2 [0:43:07]: So...

Participant 2 [0:43:07]: Yeah.

Participant 2 [0:43:08]: Be focused on five second rules.

Participant 2 [0:43:09]: So as soon as I along to the site, you have to make sure that they get...

Participant 2 [0:43:13]: Your messaging within five seconds.

Diane [0:43:16]: So I love that.

Diane [0:43:17]: I love five second test.

Diane [0:43:18]: Like brilliant.

Diane [0:43:19]: If people aren't running five second tests on your websites, like, do this because this is a great test.

Diane [0:43:23]: For messaging.

Diane [0:43:24]: Like, we all think that things make a lot of sense.

Diane [0:43:27]: Like, oh, yeah That makes sense.

Diane [0:43:28]: Show somebody for five seconds and see if they actually remember what you said?

Diane [0:43:31]: This is Brilliant love it.

Diane [0:43:31]: And if you remember any of them, maybe there were good messages.

Participant 2 [0:43:34]: Yeah.

Participant 2 [0:43:34]: So how do you balance the conversion website conversion with awareness and litigation?

Participant 2 [0:43:39]: For their home homepage because most, I'm not a product market career, but I have strong opinions because my.

Participant 2 [0:43:44]: Driving conversions.

Diane [0:43:46]: Wrong way We got someone for next year.

Diane [0:43:48]: Yeah Okay.

Diane [0:43:49]: So, you know, I come from...

Diane [0:43:51]: I've got into messaging coming from actually conversion copy writing, like, focusing on conversion conversion based copywriting writing.

Diane [0:43:58]: And I think a lot of the principles are the same.

Diane [0:44:00]: We might not be measuring the same thing.

Diane [0:44:03]: Like, when we're talking about high level top line company messaging is really hard to, like, measure the instant impact.

Diane [0:44:08]: But, like, did this increase your homepage conversions, but, like, maybe it was the wrong traffic, Like, maybe you weren't attracting the right people maybe you're repel, the right people as well.

Diane [0:44:17]: So I think when it comes to messaging, like, this is the wrong metric and the wrong Kpi to be focusing on.

Diane [0:44:21]: Right?

Diane [0:44:22]: A lot of the time we need to focus, like, we're looking at conversions.

Diane [0:44:24]: It's like, are we even...

Diane [0:44:25]: Do we have any internal alignment, like at all.

Diane [0:44:28]: Like, are we attracting the right people.

Diane [0:44:29]: But the baseline principles are the same.

Diane [0:44:32]: Like, the process that I run with companies to lock in their messaging is the same process that I run when we working on copy.

Diane [0:44:38]: Like, it all starts with, like, what is the foundations?

Diane [0:44:41]: Right?

Diane [0:44:41]: Research and discovery, understanding the customers, making sure we're understanding all of the pains and problems solving the alternatives, like, servicing that and then running with something.

Diane [0:44:50]: The thing with messaging is that you have to let something run for quite a while to actually start seeing results.

Diane [0:44:56]: Like you can't be, you know, shifting things like you actually have to have that kind of brand availability.

Diane [0:45:01]: But I think that there's a huge overlap.

Diane [0:45:04]: Right?

Diane [0:45:04]: There's a huge overlap, and I think that when you're working on creating a message that actually drives awareness and speaks to your customers, all of that down the line also is gonna help you increase conversions as well, but that's just not the metric that you should be tracking for.

Diane [0:45:16]: Right?

Dave [0:45:17]: Okay.

Dave [0:45:17]: One more time.

Dave [0:45:18]: Do it up for Diane.

Dave [0:45:18]: Thanks.

Dave [0:45:19]: Hey.

Dave [0:45:24]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

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