#276: How to Evolve as a CMO: Navigating New Markets, Personas, and Business Models with Kady Srinivasan

#276 Career Growth | Dave is joined by Kady Srinivasan, CMO at You.com, an AI-first company building infrastructure for enterprise agents. Kady has led marketing at some of the world’s most recognizable companies, including Dropbox, Klaviyo, and Lightspeed, where she scaled teams, drove massive revenue growth, and navigated ICP pivots. Now, she’s bringing that experience into the fast-changing world of AI.

Dave and Kady cover:

• How to evolve as a CMO across industries, personas, and business models
• The three core systems CMOs need to scale teams and drive alignment
• How AI is reshaping marketing roles, workflows, and the skills future CMOs will need

You’ll walk away with lessons you can apply to your own career, no matter what market or role you’re in.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro
  
• (03:03) - – From engineer to reluctant marketer
  
• (05:37) - – Gaming years and “coolest mom” cred
  
• (07:52) - – The story behind You.com’s domain
  
• (09:31) - – Why she jumped into AI
  
• (12:00) - – Reinventing yourself as a CMO
  
• (14:00) - – Fundamentals that never change in marketing
  
• (16:13) - – Aligning marketing with company strategy
  
• (19:24) - – Pivoting the ICP at Lightspeed
  
• (22:26) - – Lessons on cross-functional alignment
  
• (25:08) - – Letting go to grow as a leader
  
• (27:53) - – Systems every CMO should set up
  
• (34:43) - – Why no single playbook works
  
• (36:24) - – How AI is reshaping marketing roles
  
• (51:04) - – Building an AI-first marketing org and closing thoughts

‍

Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.com
Join the Exit Five Newsletter here:
Check out the Exit Five job board:
Become an Exit Five member:

***

Today’s episode is brought to you by

Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?

Come on, today’s buyers don’t want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.

That’s where Walnut comes in.

Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond.

That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.

And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what’s actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.

Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA?

Go check out . And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

‍

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:00]:
You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt. I just wrapped up an awesome interview with Kadi Srinvivasann. She is the cmo@you.com. we had an awesome conversation about her career story, but most importantly, what's happening right now in AI and marketing. She has been at a bunch of different companies across different industries and different Personas. So it's not just the same B2B marketing playbook over and over again. She's driven explosive growth at companies like Klaviyo, where she led them from 150 million to 600 million ARR. As their first global head of marketing, she doubled Lightspeed's market share through a bold ICP pivot.

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:48]:
Yep, you can change your ICP even after you've gone public. She's seen a bunch of IPOs, and now she's doing it all over again at an AI first company called you dot com. If you're into marketing, which you are, because you're listening to this podcast. You want to hear from an awesome marketing leader and hear thoughts about what's actually happening in marketing and AI. You're going to love this interview. Here's my conversation with Kady Srinvivasan. All right, Kady, super excited to have you on. Thanks for hanging out with me today.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:01:15]:
Hi, Dave. Nice to hang. Yes. Thank you for having me. This is awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:19]:
Oh, no. Did I glitch already? It's all good.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:01:21]:
You did.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:22]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm sure a bunch of people that are listening to this will. Will know you, but if you know, you and me, we're at a dinner party, we're going around the table. What is the, like, one minute introduction of. Of who you are and what you do?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:01:36]:
I think the one minute introduction is I'm a failed software engineer turned reluctant marketer, and I can talk about why all of those things happened.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:46]:
All right.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:01:47]:
I've been, you know, kind of in this marketing space for now, for many years. I have done a lot of different things, both from a different business model perspective as well as, like, the kinds of, you know, B2C versus B2B. And the biggest question for me is every. Every single job, every single year, it's like, oof. This is a whole new era of marketing that I have not been exposed to. So it's been kind of fun.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:12]:
Okay. And then company wise, so you. You spent time at Dropbox and Klaviyo. Can you give us the kind of, like, replay of your tenure in as a marketing leader?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:02:21]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I wouldn't go into a lot of the details. So you know, when I started off my life, I was honestly, I was a software engineer. I was one of the worst software engineers you could ever find. Thank God. I kind of made this switch to go into business and marketing. Initially. I started my career doing B2C marketing, if you can believe that.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:02:39]:
I was selling face creams and bread for Walmart, that kind of stuff. And then realized, okay, that's just way too long of a cycle and I need something faster. So I transitioned to games. I was in a bunch of gaming companies, Ubisoft, Electronic Arts, and I still am today the coolest mom amongst my son's friends.

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:02]:
I love that. What makes you the coolest mom, you say, like what puts you in that? What do you do that's so cool?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:03:09]:
Well, I absolutely boast right about. Because I need the street cred amongst my kids friends. So I tell them my name is on the FIFA mobile app, which it is, and Plants versus Zombies. I tell them I worked on Star Wars, Galaxy of Heroes. That almost invariably gets them like, oh my God, are you serious? Can you get us free stuff?

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:32]:
That's amazing. We're not there yet. My son was asking me what I do the other day. He's it's going to be a long path until we get there, but that's cool. Okay. And then today you're CMO@you.com.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:03:49]:
Yeah. So just to round out that journey, I went from gaming to then made the transition to tech. So I was with Dropbox and then Klaviyo and a company called Lightspeed which is basic. It's a public company focusing on SaaS and FinTech. And then now I'm with yes you.com as the Chief Marketing Officer.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:09]:
What is U.com?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:04:10]:
So we are basically an AI infrastructure company. So think of us as the company that helps provide you with all the different layers of things that you need in order to build an agent or set of agents and be able to deploy those agents across your entire enterprise. So we think of us as like we help you scale your business, scale the AI deployments in your business, giving you custom solutions and giving you very specific, verified, accurate kind of data outputs.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:43]:
People know Dropbox, we'll get there. And people know Dropbox. People know Klaviyo. Yeah, people probably know Lightspeed. How long has U.com been around?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:04:51]:
We've been around about four years now. Okay people, I think in certain places people know about you dot com. I think they know our founders really well. I would say it's not yet a company where it has broad recognition like a Dropbox.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:05]:
Yeah, I just want to know about the domain personally.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:05:08]:
Yeah, this domain is so interesting and I'm sure you've seen this and heard it from the people that you're interacting with. But every day things change in the AI world, especially on that LLM infrastructure world. Things are changing crazily every hour it seems like things change.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:25]:
It's too much.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:05:27]:
Right. Sometimes you feel like, wait, how do I actually catch up? And yes, too much.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:33]:
It's crazy. But serious question, did one of the founders like, have this domain? Did they buy it later? Like they get a three. One of the hardest parts, I think, about building a company today is that all of the good words and brand names are taken. And then you either have to like spell something in a crazy way or you have to do like a dot, IO or AI. And so when I saw you, when I saw caddy and she's CMO at this company, I'm like, you dot com. That's crazy. That's like a, you know, 1999 like, type of domain.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:06:04]:
Yeah. Actually, funny story is Marc Benioff owned this domain. And Richard Socer, our CEO, he used to work for Mark back in the day. He was the chief AI scientist at Salesforce. And when Richard wanted to start his own company, I think Mark gave this as a parting gift to Richard.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:23]:
Man, what's up with all these billionaires in these domains? Have you seen this? You've seen Dharmesh? Dharmesh has done this.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:06:28]:
He's so telling Dharmesh.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:30]:
I just saw yesterday he posted. He had a domain that he gave to. Or you know, gave. Right. He had a one for Perplexity. Before that he had the. He had the domain. Chat.com.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:40]:
like, yeah, these guys have been. This is a genius move. They've been squatting on these domains all these years.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:06:46]:
I, I mean, tells you how visionary some of these folks are, right? Like, just to be able to.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:51]:
I know. Well, then, then me, like, I think I have a great idea and I go like to Godaddy and look it up and it's like, like I've never, I've never, like, oh, I got a domain and then I go look it up and it's not taken. I mean, it's always taken.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:07:03]:
It's always taken. I know. I just, I feel like all of us should just go and own our own domains. I haven't done that. Like, I haven't owned. I haven't gone in and said, I need to own caddystreenwarson.com or whatever. I hope nobody takes it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:07:14]:
I shouldn't have said that. Now some jerk is going to go grab, you know, the, the caddy website. I got mine. DaveGearHeart.com it's great. Great.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:07:22]:
All right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:07:23]:
Anyway, that's a, that's a side side note. So cool company. Sounds like a really cool opportunity by the way. Like you're at Lightspeed for two years. Did you know you wanted to get into the AI space? I mean chief AI scientist at Salesforce.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:07:36]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:07:36]:
Starts a company, they need a cmo. That sounds like the kind of dream job for someone of your, of your stature at this point. How'd you get there?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:07:43]:
Yeah, it's been interesting. Right. Like the Lightspeed story for me was Lightspeed was such an incredible opportunity because it was the sort of the first time in my career that I was the officer of a public company. I was helping drive massive growth at massive scale. Like we are talking about a billion dollar public company growing at 20% year over year type of a thing. And so it just kind of checked all my boxes. Sort of dream come true type of a situation. What I started to realize at some point was when all of these like you look around you in the Bay Area and you look at how many different new business models are being created and how accessible it is now to start a company with AI, I started to get the itch and I tell people I feel like I'm a frustrated entrepreneur because I feel like I've always wanted to start something of my own and I was never good enough to be a coding expert.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:08:37]:
But now I'm looking at all of this and thinking, wow, I can create a app in lovable in like two hours. Should I just do it? Should I just go head first? So I started thinking about it and my intention with leaving Lightspeed was actually to start my own thing, start my own AI business, software business. For various reasons that didn't quite work out the way I wanted it to. And then I started thinking, gosh, I need to get some more real experience in the zero to one type of environment. And U.com seemed like just the perfect opportunity.

Dave Gerhardt [00:09:09]:
Yeah, I mean that's fun. I think a lot of people with the entrepreneurial. I think a lot of great CMOs have that entrepreneurial itch. I don't think that just because you're not building your own company doesn't make you non entrepreneurial. By the way, I was thinking of this earlier. You said you're a failed software Engineer. I'm like, well then this is great because you can just vibe code now and if you're like, know a little bit to be dangerous, plus you can vibe code like, you can be a real engineer now.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:09:32]:
Yeah, A real fake engineer.

Dave Gerhardt [00:09:35]:
A real fake.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:09:35]:
Yeah, exactly. I think you're, you're 100% right. You get the technical capabilities that you didn't have, and as long as you can figure out how to be very clear about the business problems you're trying to sell, then there's no limit to what you're doing. And to your point, like, CMOs now have to be so innovative in the playbooks that they have to bring to different roles and different positions. Nothing is ever the same. I mean, like, I've spent so many years in SaaS and now working for an AI company. AI native companies have extremely different economics, different everything growth trajectories compared to SaaS.

Dave Gerhardt [00:10:12]:
Everybody listening to this podcast, you hear what she just said? Nothing is ever the same. So you can ignore anything. We ever talk about all of what it is. The hard part, like, there is so much, you know, we, we write on LinkedIn. We have our community at Exit 5. And it's one of the hardest parts is like just how much nuance there is to, to marketing. And so.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:10:31]:
Right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:10:32]:
What I think is super interesting about your story and your background is this, like you said before, like, you've done a bunch of different business. Every company has basically been a different business model. Every company has been pretty much different industry. You just went from public company CMO to like starting all over again doing, you know, being a startup marketer.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:10:53]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:10:54]:
Usually when you get to this level of cmo and I've been at companies where it's like, oh, we want the CMO who spent 20 years at Salesforce. And it's like you've kind of had this, you know, basically path of like reinventing yourself every two or three years. But I bet you under that though, there are some like, fundamental. And this is kind of what I want to get into. Like whether it's B2B or B2C, it does. See, there has to be some kind of fundamentals here that have allowed you to go to multiple different companies with multiple different Personas. I saw, you know, I think with, with Lightspeed, I read something where you all like, change the ICP and saw, you know, explosive growth.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:11:31]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:11:31]:
I want to try to dig into Caddy's like, marketing playbook if, if you have one. If we could try to unpack that a little bit. There's gotta be some, some commonalities between all these things.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:11:40]:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I. And that's such a good question, Dave. I think over time I've built the mental model of what makes any kind of situation successful. And to be honest with you, there's a lot of this. The principles are all the same across the board. And what I mean by principles is the following, which is first. In almost every situation that I've stepped into, it's almost always been the case that you need either a stronger storytelling about what the company does or you need to connect the product better to customers.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:12:12]:
So. And that, you know, we kind of put the lens of product marketing or brand on top of it. But it's deeper than that. It's more about. You really have to understand who the customer is, the ICP is, and take that and really understand the job to be done that the product is doing for them and then be able to craft a story, a narrative, a functional benefits, emotional benefits layer around it that connects the product to the market. And that's kind of job number one for a cmo. And that I've seen over and over and over. Right.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:12:45]:
The second thing is a lot of companies, particularly SaaS and now AI companies, they either have a inbound motion or an outbound motion. And of course like a partner motion. And the split between inbound and outbound and partner varies across the board, but they're usually those, the three big things that source demand. And as a marketer, you need to know what you need to do to support those three motions. How you support an inbound motion is very different from how you support an outbound motion. For instance, you support an inbound motion by making sure that you are driving paid ads, your website is tipped off, you're doing SEO and now geo, things like that. How you support an outbound motion or a field motion or whatever flavor that is. It's about sales, collateral, enablement, training, making sure the sales teams are focusing on the right market, et cetera.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:13:38]:
So there's that second portion of demand creation, demand generation, depending on the model.

Dave Gerhardt [00:13:44]:
Okay, so depending on the model, right. And the nuance there is like, that's not necessarily like up for you to just decide. It's like this is where the company strategy and how the company has what, what philosophy the company has. Right? Like, it's not just like you sit in the marketing room and you're like, well, here's how we're going to go to market. Like that. That happens at a strategic level, whether you're going to be high volume inbound. Right. The, the initial like Dropbox PLG model is going to be different than probably what you were, you were doing at, at Lightspeed.

Dave Gerhardt [00:14:14]:
Can you just talk to that about like how so much of the, the success of a marketing org really comes back to like how much Are we clear on the strategic piece of this?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:14:25]:
Yeah, exactly. You hit the nail on the head. You know, as a marketer, it's easy to sit back and say I'm going to help execute the company strategy and go and do the things that companies already decided to do. I think the difference between maybe a head of marketing or VP of marketing and CMO is the following, which is a CMO is helping drive the company strategy thinking through to your point. Where do we play? How do we win? And what are the motions we need to put in place? What is the white space on the product side? What is the category we want to create and helping drive the corporate strategy so that then you can link the marketing strategy to the corporate strategy. Right. So that's kind of the. Actually going back to your original question about the playbook, my third sort of thing was going to be helping drive the company strategy in a way and be kind of the glue across product, sales, customer success and figure out like what as a company, what are we trying to do? And this is one of the things that we did at Lightspeed was we very quickly realized that who we were selling to was just not the right sort of audience that saw value from our product.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:15:37]:
So we ended up looking, taking a step back and saying let's look at the market and not from a segmentation perspective, but of a geography perspective. Let's look at market share in each of these geographies, see how much we want to get to in each of these markets, then construct the right kind of tactics to go after it. So you know, we, out of it came a, we created a field sales motion that went after specific markets. In some cases we continued an inbound focus. So marketing took the leadership to drive that. And I would say if there's one thing that I'd love for like you know, rising, this is what I advise. A lot of heads of marketing in companies that I advise today is take a step back, don't be too involved in the day to day, take a step back and help the company think about the bigger market, the company strategy.

Dave Gerhardt [00:16:27]:
Overall, I like that. I mean I, I feel like whenever I try to like write answers inside of our community or give advice, it always comes back to this the company strategy piece. And it's like, you know, when I have somebody on like, you, it's like, okay, this is somebody who's seen this and done this at a bunch of different. And I'm. I'm not talking to you, I'm lecturing the listeners right now. But it's like, this is the difference between the job of, like, individual contributor in marketing and like, if you want to be the marketing executive or CMO at the company, it's like you have your marketing team. Yes. But your job is to be a partner to the CEO, to cfo, to product, to sales.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:02]:
And then together we're collaborating on, like, what does marketing need to do here to support this? And that's where the decisions around.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:17:09]:
That's right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:09]:
Inbound and outbound and goals and how are we going to measure this and how are we going to create demand or, you know, what's the strategy going to be? That that's where it all comes down to. And I think a lot of the challenges in marketing usually stem from, like, well, the company, you know, the company wants to go this way. And then like, marketing is fundamentally misaligned. So you mentioned something really interesting, right? So you go to Lightspeed, there's already probably hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Were they. Were they a public company when you, when you joined there?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:17:36]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:37]:
Okay, so you came in as a CMO of a public company and changed the icp. You mentioned that something wasn't. Wasn't working or wasn't the right fit. What were some of the, like, indicators? There were deals not closing, was like, you know, lead volume drying up. I'm sure you didn't just, like, wake up one day and decide to do this really hard thing, which is change the icp. Like, what led to that? And I'm asking you because I want to help people that are listening to this maybe think about, like, hmm, is there something more fundamental? Like, is marketing not working right now at my company because we're not good at TikTok, or is it because, like, we have the wrong ICP?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:18:12]:
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head again. I think it's all about the ICP definition. Right? Like, the, the thing that I did at Lightspeed was the first, call it two months. I spend a lot of time just digging into the product. That's not the only thing, obviously. But it's really. You have to get into the guts and hearts of the product and understand, what is it? Why are we selling it? What's the job to be done that it's solving for customers and more importantly, kind of what is the value that our customers are driving. And in that discovery, it became very clear to me that what we were selling was this advanced, some of these advanced features like inventory management, that our customers, actually many of them wanted it, but the ones that truly wanted it had really complex operations, and they were the ones that were.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:19:01]:
They craved that sort of complexity around managing their complex workflows. And then when I started looking at the deals in the pipeline, it became very clear that we were trying to sell to really small, small merchants who didn't need all those bells and whistles. So you kind of take a step back and say, wait, we are trying to sell this really amazing portfolio of features and something that helps somebody manage really complex workflows, but we are trying to sell to people that just need something super quick and dirty. There's a clear misalignment here around who our ICP is. So that kind of started this thread around who is our icp, who really finds value. Then you kind of. I did a whole deep dive into who are the customers who are saying, yes, we can refer you, we love you, that have a high NPS score. It became super clear that it was a certain kind of segment of customers, usually Michelin star restaurants who have multiple locations, who are clearing many millions of dollars per year.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:20:04]:
And so we started to focus on that, ran a bunch of experiments. We took it market by market, created a whole set of things around it, and then suddenly it became clear, okay, this is our icp, and we pivoted almost the entire company. But it's also, to your point, it's not a marketing issue. Right. It's when you create and drive an ICP pivot, you have to make sure the sales team is aligned, your customer success is aligned, product teams are aligned. So in essence, you become the quarterback of digital transformation or some kind of transformation within the company.

Dave Gerhardt [00:20:38]:
Yeah, because like, if you just change the. If you just change the outside of the store and then people walk in the store and it's still the same or it doesn't match, you know?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:20:46]:
Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think you didn't ask me this, but I advise a lot of rising stars, people who want to get to the CMO role, and almost invariably the advice I give to them is, it's great to start your career as in the tactical world. Meaning, like, you have 10 people under you, you know exactly everything that they're working on, you're in the middle of it, you know all the details, but at some point you got to start letting go of all of the details. You cannot manage those details and you need to step back and you need to start taking more of this kind of a cross functional leadership role in the company. That, that makes you kind of the glue across multiple different functions. And that's how you get to that kind of that next level where you're regarded as an executive who has a voice at the seat of the table.

Dave Gerhardt [00:21:36]:
Are you listening? I know we're in your ears right now. Do you hear that? She's talking to you. She's talking to you right now. I know, I've been there. We used to share this. When I was at Drift. There was this article by this woman called Molly, Molly Graham I believe her name was. And it was like about letting go of your Legos, something like that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:21:54]:
And it became kind of like this internal mantra for like, you know, management and progressing through the company. It's like that. If you want to, if you want to grow, you got to know what to let go. And I remember being my first time as a VP of marketing. My counterpart who was the head of product, he probably had, you know, 10, 15 years more experience than me. And so we were on the executive team together. But he, you know, gave me a lot of advice and mentorship and one day he pulled me aside. He's like, dg, he's like, I can tell you're really stressed right now.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:24]:
He's like, you gotta, you gotta realize that you're. Now that you're a VP of marketing, like your job is not to do everything. Yeah, you know that, right?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:22:30]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:30]:
I'm like, yeah, but, you know, I gotta show my worth. And he's no, your job is to like coach the, you know, your job is to move the back to you making video games. Like you're the controller of this video game that is marketing now. And yeah, that was, that was a huge moment to realize that. Yeah, you're right, I can't. But I still always struggle with the, like, see something go out and I want to go change it. And realizing that.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:22:52]:
Right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:52]:
Just because it wasn't done my way doesn't mean it can't be successful.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:22:56]:
Yeah. And that's such good advice, particularly as you kind of. You end up growing a team. You know, in lightspeed, I had about 180 people. There is no way you can keep track of everything that everyone's doing. It's just impossible. So you need to know not only how to let go, but also you need to know how to Set the right principles and the vision so that people know what's. What you want to get done or how you want to get done.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:23:20]:
And then at that point, you need to give people the autonomy to go do it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:23:23]:
Yeah, that's almost like step one is like, accepting the fact that, like, okay, I got 300. There's just no way I'm ever going to be able to keep up with all this stuff. And so what systems do I need to be able to. To do that?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:23:34]:
So that's right. Systems is a good word. Yes.

Dave Gerhardt [00:23:37]:
Yeah, let's keep going. I have some stuff that I want to circle back to that you mentioned, but I. I think this is a good topic for this audience right now. So what systems do you set up or what have you learned now? Like, so you need to have some. You need to have the flow of data back up to you. What systems and, you know, have you built over the years to, like, help you sleep better at night knowing that, like, all right, I got a 350 people on this team, or, you know, whatever it is.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:24:00]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:24:01]:
Hundreds of people on this team. I can go to bed. Is it like a scorecard? Is it just like black and white looking at some numbers? How do you navigate that?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:24:09]:
So, I mean, I think, look, the data, absolutely the most critical thing, but it's also super important to know what data to focus on. Right. So I would set up these weekly business reviews, monthly business reviews, to look at, I'd say the top 10 metrics that I cared about, whether it was inbound, pipeline, ROAS, website traffic. There's not more than 10 things that we would track very regularly. Look at how they were trending over time and what we were doing then. On top of that, though, you have to have specific plans. Right. So every quarter, for instance, I would make sure that each of my work stream owners had very clear roadmaps of what they were planning to do on a monthly basis.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:24:54]:
And then we would get back together every quarter and say, did we achieve the things that we wanted to achieve? Did it go off track? If so, what was the. What are the mitigating factors? What could we do to bring it back? So kind of do a postmortem on your roadmap every quarter. And I've stolen that idea of a roadmap from product. It's incredibly valuable.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:12]:
I like that. I was just thinking about this the other day. I was, yeah, the things I think about, I was just thinking, like, what's kind of like a playbook, you know, there isn't One playbook. But if you had one, it's like you kind of have your, like your brand. You mentioned earlier, like the story, the brand, the identity, the who we are, why do we exist, you know, all those fundamental things. And then I think I've been at companies where like the roadmap, having these, we called them marketable moments or, you know, they could be campaigns having these kind of like regular hits, like one. I don't know if it's every, you know, every two weeks or once a month or once a quarter, depending on the scale, but it's like you have these two rhythms. And I, I don't know why.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:47]:
I've never, I've never heard anybody say this, but it's right. There should be a marketing. There should. Like, the product roadmap gives guardrails for like this cadence and it forces you to ship. I love this concept of having a marketing roadmap. So you have your always on stuff, but then you kind of have this regular cadence of campaigns or themes. I love that.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:26:05]:
Yeah, that's right. And then also, within the, like, with the concept of a roadmap, you also want to also you think about what the epic is going to be for the quarter. Right. What is the big thing that you want to show every quarter where everything sort of ladders up to that one big thing that you want to beat the drum on. And then the last one, I'll say in terms of systems is I stole this from a media agency that I worked with a long time ago. But there's this idea of red threads. And what I mean by red threads is these specific things or truths about your product or your market or your category or your customers that you absolutely want to keep hammering on with everything that you do. So for you dot com, for instance, one of our red threads is accuracy, because we really are the most accurate kind of search that there is.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:26:53]:
And we just want to be able to hit on this with everything that we do. So what I tell the team is I publish these red threads and then they can just go be as creative as possible around it. And I don't mind as long as they are talking about these things. I don't mind what creative stuff that they come up with. So it makes it easier for me to let go of control.

Dave Gerhardt [00:27:16]:
Okay, so you got themes and then you. The roadmap, whatever you want to call it, QBRs. I like that. It's like the beginning of each quarter, we're all going to hang out, we're going to agree on the, like Three to five, you know, key priorities for this quarter. And we're all going to.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:27:28]:
That's right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:27:29]:
And then, you know, two weeks into that, 15 things come up.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:27:32]:
I know. Plan always changes. Absolutely. Yeah, but, but that's part of the thing too is as a cmo, you need to keep the team focused. Right. This shit comes up. Like in a startup, especially a high growth startup, things always change. The market doesn't behave the way you want it to.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:27:48]:
Customers don't behave the way you want them to. And it's your job to know when to continue the focus versus Switch and be agile and pivot to something.

Dave Gerhardt [00:27:59]:
Yeah, that's a, a gift and a curse of mine. Like, I'm, I'm willing to like blow up everything tomorrow.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:28:07]:
That's awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:07]:
But I have a hard time. Which is a good thing at some times, but also means like, I have a hard time, you know, it drives my wife nuts. This is why we're good together. But ye, Yeah, I have a hard time being patient. You know, at the same time, like Dan, who's my business partner at Exit 5, like, he will push back on me. We're a small company, but it's a good example of what you're saying. He'll push back on me because what we'll do together is we'll agree on the priorities right now. And so then when I have some other crazy idea that I want to do and I'm like, why are we doing this? We're not moving fast enough.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:37]:
He's like, he'll sit me down and be like, okay, how does this like, stack against these four things that we agreed to? And I'm like, yeah, well, I wouldn't put it ahead of any of them. And it's like, okay, then there's your answer. And it's like, work. Just like life is. It's almost about like, it's accepting the fact that you're, we're not going to be able to do all these things. And I, this is a lesson I learned the hard way. Also used to drive me nuts when the. This would never happen to you, I'm sure, but the CEO will send you like, why are we not at this conference? And you're like, I don't know.

Dave Gerhardt [00:29:05]:
We should have been there. And over time I learned like, well, because we can't be everywhere. We're doing this and this and this and it's just, that's part of the game, right? Every. Everything can work in marketing. We've proven that out. TikTok works, events work Directly, like we can say yes to everything but like you just, you can never make progress and survive.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:29:22]:
No again, like, you know, you're so right. My CEO sending me slacks or emails in the middle of the night saying why are we not doing this? Used to send me into a massive amount spiral of stress and like this imposter syndrome of oh my God, maybe I should have done that, why didn't I do that? Like you know, it just kind of used to send me into those spirals. And now with time and experience I've realized there are ways to handle that communication and be able to talk about these are the priorities. This is why we are doing this. And now if something comes up where it's like absolutely this need, we need to jump on it, we'll do it. But to reduce the whiplash on the team, you need to know when to stop the spiral and when to kind of jump on something different.

Dave Gerhardt [00:30:08]:
Okay, so I like that takeaway, take away that from this people is product roadmap. What about like you've, you've had a bunch of different industries, done a bunch of different Personas. Isn't there some value in just like using your brain and showing up to these companies and being like I'm not going to go off of what I heard on some Exit 5 webinar or saster webinar or Salesforce, you know, post. Like I'm going to assess the marketing playbook that we need to build based on what's happening today. And you kind of reinvent yourself at each one of these stops.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:30:39]:
Yeah, I mean that's almost always the case. Right. Because no company is alike, to use a very cliche term. It's like every company has a snowflake go to market motion in terms of whether it's a mix of an inbound, outbound, the kind of ICPs, whether it's like a mid market or enterprise customers and how they sell to the customers, et cetera. So you have to go in there and be able to assess what is the, what's the current state, where is the demand coming from, where, where are we successful and then figure out how to build from there. You, you can't come in and apply a playbook that has worked for you in the past. You also can't change too many things. You have to have the balance of what's current, what's working and then build from there.

Dave Gerhardt [00:31:20]:
Okay, what do what, what do we believe about AI my friend? And I'll give you more. Obviously, you know, that's a humongous question. I'll give you a more specific. As you're at a new company in the AI space, I want to know about like the marketing playbook earlier you mentioned like, you know, there's inbound, there's outbound, there's partners. You talked about demand gen and kind of capturing demand and generating demand. What do you believe is going to change or like what's going to be fundamentally different about the go to market mix than we've seen or maybe it's not, I don't know.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:31:51]:
Yeah, I mean I think there's so many things where the things like geo. Absolutely that'll change everything that we do in terms of how we create content, how we show up, what kind of things we focus on. So okay, let me take a step back from what I have seen so far, the things that our AI is enabling us to do is obviously move faster on creating content if you do it in the right way, relevant content. And so therefore there is a little bit of an arbitrage opportunity in my mind where you can show up in a different way, especially with geo that you didn't have before. And that I think is only possible with AI. Second, when you think about the like how you outreach customers and prospects, SDRs, AI SDRs, inbound AI, inbound reps, there is something there around how you can use AI to reach massive scale if you do it in the right way first. Again, so there's like some in that there's a lot of promise around hyper personalized reach, outreach to prospects in micro niches, micro segments. If you do it in the right way.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:33:01]:
It takes a lot of effort by the way, which we'll get to in a second. Thirdly, I would say the, you know, I had 180 people at lightspeed, now it's, you know, less than 10 people. And I would argue that there's potentially a different level of throughput and velocity I'm getting out of this, out of the 10 people than I did from 180 people. And so this is a highly sensitive topic. We should.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:27]:
You said the quiet part out loud, folks.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:33:29]:
I know. No, but this is. I'll talk about this in a second. But I do not believe that AI is destroying jobs. I actually, I think there's going to be new jobs that will be created and I can tell you what those look like. So this is all the stuff that, the background, the boring stuff that I think AI is helping us kind of get rid of or automate. It's not there yet where I can say it's so reliable and efficient that man, I can do everything I can with like two people. It's just not there.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:34:03]:
I don't see it. Or maybe I'm not as well versed. But when you think about production scale, I feel like there are pockets where AI is production scale, but many places it's not. So I still need people to do some things and those things are like, I still need people to think about storytelling. I still need people to think about how to use the right, put in the right prompts. I still need people to think through exactly the right kind of context they're providing to these LLMs, you know, that kind of stuff.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:37]:
Yeah. I was just talking to, I was talking to a guy yesterday. I was in the pool with my kids.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:34:42]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:42]:
And this guy said, are you Dave? I know you from LinkedIn. I'm like, dude, this is amazing. The power of social media. We're in Vermont, I'm in a pool and this guy, anyway, he's the founder of a healthcare company up here. And we were talking about this and it's like, it's not like the hu. You still have to be funny and creative. So like everybody's. I've been messing around with this, you know, VO3, Google's, you know, video generator.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:05]:
Right. And it's like I've gone through a bunch of threads on X of people who have made these amazing, hilarious videos with them.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:35:12]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:13]:
And I think that is still the, the, the variable for success there. It's like, oh, it's not just like, oh, you wrote a prompt. It's like, no, you had the idea, you explained the idea, you had the funny story or great example. And then you use this tool to like create the video that is still a hugely important role for a human. To have the nuance to make that thing funny and, and exist. Right?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:35:35]:
No, and absolutely. And I think the strategy, the. Sorry, the clarity, the, the ability to structure your thought process, all of that stuff is you have to bring that AI is just going to amplify garbage thinking if you let it. And so, so here's my take. The reason why I feel like we can do more with less is I wrote a post about it recently, I called it the Multi Threaded Marketer. And that kind of went viral, which is surprising to me. Nothing I write goes viral.

Dave Gerhardt [00:36:10]:
This idea, I'll help you out. I have a special button, I'll give it. I'll. You just press it.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:36:15]:
I'll show you're so kind. This multi threaded marketer, the basic thesis is people can Do a lot of interwoven tactics. You don't need to be a demand gen person or a content person. You need to be able to think strategically about how all of that comes together together to solve problems. Now my thesis for AI and jobs in marketing is the following, which is we need higher and higher levels of multi threaded marketers as we go forward. So I don't think people need to worry about jobs as much as think about what are the new skills they must acquire to operate in a new world. I'm right now hiring a prompt marketer. What is prompt marketer? Well, it's actually a person who can come in and help build agents that make us successful within marketing.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:37:02]:
Now imagine this is one person. I can imagine a future where I have 15 prompt marketers or agent builders. And now you have to have someone who's tying all of that strategically together to make sure we are achieving our business outcomes. So a manager of marketing in the future may not be a manager of humans alone. They might be a manager of agents, models, processes, type of a thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:37:26]:
The thing that's exciting to me about that is I love the marketing. I don't love the internal politics and nonsense. I love the having an idea. We all got excited about this idea. We want to create that and bring it to market and get, yeah, you know, get a response. And I think what's cool is like I think the future looks like each one of us in marketing being closer to like full stack marketers than ever before. I can make videos, I can edit, I can, you know, write some code, I can make graphics, I can do all that.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:37:55]:
That's right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:37:56]:
That's not to say that we don't need designers. It's similar to like a vibe coding and stuff today. Right. Like if you don't, if you don't actually know how to write code, like you're not going to be able to just like make an app magically using one of these tools. Right? Yeah, you're still going to need to get that, get it over the finish line. I think the same is true with great designers and you know, like great, great artists. But that's what's fun is like there's not so many, not so many handoffs anymore. Like I can do way more just on my own with technology, which is pretty exciting.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:38:26]:
Yeah, yeah. It amplifies your creativity and your intelligence if you do it in the right way.

Dave Gerhardt [00:38:30]:
Man, you've had some good, some good quotables in this one. You're, you're on your, you're on Your game today. So, so there's kind of three themes on AI. Then it's like content, this AI sdr, hyper personalization stuff, and then the ability to do more with a, with a smaller team. Yeah, can we go back to the content and the like hyper. So let's talk about each one of those just briefly before we wrap up the content and the aisdrp. So what is it about content that you think marketers can be using AI? Because I hear you on one side, it's like angel. Like I hear both sides of this.

Dave Gerhardt [00:39:05]:
Like, I believe that too. But then also you just said this amazing line which is like, AI is going to amplify garbage if you let it. And I think that when people think of AI in content, we kind of still think of this like first wave of AI a couple years ago where it's like, oh, look at this kind of like crappy blog post I had ChatGPT generate. So yeah, what do you think is exciting about AI and content?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:39:28]:
I think it really, truly helps you. Well, let's take a step back, right? Like the. Take a simple example of market research. In the past we would spend maybe a hundred thousand dollars, depending on how much budget you had to go after very specific segments, do market research, do panels, do X, Y and Z, and then try to figure out like why they're buying, what they want, they prefer, et cetera, all of that. Now you can do with things like Relay, I think it's called Relay, Relay App, or just a bunch of those so you can get insights in minutes. Now they may not all be perfect, but it's directional enough that you know, you can start to do stuff. And so it's similarly on the content side, if you do it in the right way, if you're really creating the right kind of prompting, you have the right, you're asking the right questions of whatever LLM or tool that you're using. You should be able to generate a really clear, good piece of content that's factual and that's citable and that's built for LLMs.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:40:31]:
It may not be built for humans necessarily, but it is built for LLMs that will help you in your overall SEO geo efforts. And that's the kind of, the promise of AI that I find very exciting is you can create those and you can make it hyper specific. So like let's say for instance, you are selling to CFOs, right? Not all CFOs are alike or have the same kind of problems, but you can literally pick and choose segments, micro segments of 50 CFOs at a time and be able to create very, very specific, highly personalized kind of things for them and be able to show up when they're looking for information for you or be able to get in front of them. And that's the promise of content that I really like. Now you have to put in the effort, though. It's like elbow grease. You have to put in the effort to come up with the right prompt. I remember at Lightspeed, we went through like 50 iterations of a prompt before we got to a point where we could generate blogs that had taste and that had the quality that I was looking for.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:41:35]:
And now it's much easier to do that. You don't need to go through 50 revs. But like, we are talking about you. The more effort you can put into creating the prompt and using it, the better off you are in the long term.

Dave Gerhardt [00:41:48]:
Yeah, I think that that's also become. It's become fun. It's like, it's become like the art of marketing is like in the brief, and it's like, if you write a better brief, you'll get a better output. And now it's like, okay, I might be working on a deck or something, and I might spend, you know, an hour refining my prompts, and then I'm gonna get multiple hours of output. But if I just, like, you know, quickly write something in, I'm not gonna get the same. But if I really do my research and spend the time and like, master the prompt. I mean, it's getting crazy, though. I mean, like, for.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:17]:
I kind of have just been riffing. I haven't used any. Any of these questions, but just like, I like to mess around. And I, I wrote this long prompt last night, like to do some prep for you with deep research as an example.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:42:28]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:28]:
And the output is amazing because it, like, went to the sa. You know, you did something with Saster and it went to Saster and got the transcript of that and read the interview. And then there was something about, you know, from. From Lightspeed. And then there was something else that came up from LinkedIn. And so, like, I have all these sources. Yeah, F2VC signal partners. You did something with Tom Tungas, Saster.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:49]:
It was able to go to all these websites and pull in all that information. Now I can. Okay, here's. Here's the thing that I think I roughly want to ask Caddy today. And now I can riff on that. So, yeah, those things are, like, are exciting. But, you know, I think the. The bar is Low, which is you can just amplify.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:06]:
It's, we got to clip that as, as a quote. Okay, and then what's the case for the AIs? I, I've only seen people kind of railing on, I haven't seen many people that believe that the AISDR thing is going to work. And I think that's only because we're just used to like getting spam from mass emails and humans and so what's going to make it better about aisdr? And then I do see lots of smart people like yourself talking about the future is especially as we think about things of like abm, hyper personalize outreach. Can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing, hearing, learning there?

Kady Srinvivasan [00:43:39]:
Yeah, I think with kind of that AISDR type of a situation. Look, my thesis is that yeah, of course nobody likes getting spam emails, but if it's email that is very relevant to you in your personal context and that you can, that sort of, you know, is very clear in terms of the value proposition it's selling, then it does create the hook that people are looking for. So imagine like Dave, you are expanding your business and you took a lease out on a new office somewhere because you're growing so fast, right? And you get an email from, let's say an insurance company saying, hey, we saw that you've just leased this new place. Here's some things that you need to know about the neighborhood and some questions around like insurance that you might have, et cetera, et cetera. So would you like to go deeper into it? Imagine you got that kind of an email. It's additive, it's creating value, it's specific to your context and you most likely will at least have a quick call about it, right? And that's the kind of stuff that I think the promise of an AI SDR is that it's able to tie a lot of different things together to give you a clear value at the time that you are thinking about it, at the time that you have the problem. I don't think we are there yet. I think the idea is there, the market is there.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:45:01]:
I don't think the technology is there yet, but I see us moving in the direction then there's no way something like that can happen with humans alone. Even if, as I've done in the past, hire a bunch of people in Manila to do all of that stuff, it's not going to happen. So AI is clearly the answer. It just needs to work at scale.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:19]:
Yeah, I, look, I, I, I can see, I Could see both sides of it working out. I've seen some pretty bad outreach from humans.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:45:26]:
Right? Yeah, yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:29]:
You know, and so I think, you know, mistakes have already happened anyway. It happens all the time. It still happens. We'll send out our newsletter and someone's, you know, first name token was wrong. And you're, you know, your name will be like Dave Srinivas. And you're like, that's not my name. I'm Cat. Okay, then we update.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:43]:
Those things are gonna, are gonna happen. So do you feel like, because you're at a AI, like, you're, you're at a company with big AI scientists. Like, you're building a company in AI space. Is the CEO and, and, you know, founders of the company? Like, are you being pushed to do more? Like, is the marketing playbook that you're building? Same with all the teams within, within the company. Are you expected to be building, like, thinking AI first? Because that's kind of the. The nature of the company.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:46:13]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. I've completely changed the way I think about building a marketing organization because it's an AI first company. An example is, you know, in the past, I would have different departments or sub departments focused on demand generation, product marketing, brand, et cetera. Here I've completely reorganized it to focus more on outcomes. So I have an inbound work stream, I have an outbound work stream, I have a communications work stream. And they all cross a number of different lines in terms of, you know, inbound, for instance, is thinking about website and dimension and content and lifecycle marketing, all that kind of stuff. Outbound is thinking about events. So because of the nature of how quickly we can get up to speed on different things, I've changed the org, I've focused on outcomes.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:47:04]:
And what I'm pushing everyone to do on the marketing team is to just ship, ship, use AI, ship faster, use as many tools as possible to kind of get to the outcomes that we need to. So, yes, there is. And you look at companies like Cursor and Lovable, and I get this question from our CEO, which is, if they are able to get to like $50 million in six months, they must be doing something right. So what is it that we should be doing to ship faster every day? There's the question of what, what do we need to do to ship faster? Where do I get velocity and throughput from?

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:41]:
How much of that do you think is product, though? So many of these companies have captured lightning in a bottle from like a product market fit standpoint. It's not like you know, it's not, like, lovable. You know, made some, like, viral video that, like, launched them and, like, that's why they blew up. Right? Like, what. What do these founders want us to do? I'm like, build a better product.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:48:03]:
I think we should clip this and send it to all the founders that we know.

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:06]:
A deal. I will. This is, like the bane of the. Everyone that I talk to, like, the bane of their existence right now is, like, you know, hearing that, like, you know, Gap Gamma is doing, like, you know, 50 million in revenue, and they did it in three months, and they have, like, one employee and someone's niece is the intern. It's like, the worst narrative.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:48:27]:
So I know in some ways, the marketers, unfortunately, are going to keep facing this of, why aren't you doing more?

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. All right, well, Caddy, thanks for hanging out with me. I got a bunch of great notes, bunch of great questions. Appreciate getting some of your perspective on AI. Maybe, like, a year from now, we'll have you back on after you've done a bunch of interesting stuff@you.com. i have a special note from a listener friend of mine. Former colleague Lacy Berrian says hello to you.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:48:57]:
Oh, she is the best.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:00]:
She is. I had to make sure we put that on the record so she'll. She has a reason to listen.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:49:04]:
That's amazing. I'm so glad. Thank you for having me. This was so fun, Dave.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:09]:
Yeah, it was great. And. And look, if anybody listening to this, go find caddy on. On LinkedIn, connect with her, send her a message, because that's the CTA that I want. That my. My favorite thing in the world is when someone comes on this podcast, and then a couple weeks later the episode comes out, and then people are like, wow, people actually listen to your podcast. I want you to go connect with Caddy, hit her up, send her dm. So then she will have to message me and be like, okay, you're right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:29]:
A bunch of people did listen to that.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:49:32]:
No, I would love that. Yes.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:33]:
All right. And also, congrats on being the coolest mom around.

Kady Srinvivasan [00:49:37]:
That's a big award. Thank you.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:39]:
All right. Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode. You know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review, because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at exit 5. And you can go and check that out instead of leaving a rating or review. Go check it out right now on our website exit5.com our mission at Exit 5 is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing and there's no better place to do that than with us at exit 5.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:12]:
There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every every day asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers. Building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year. Go check it out. Learn more exit5.com and I will see you over there in the community.

‍