#271: WTF is GTM Engineering? Everything You Need to Know Before Hiring One in 2025

#271 GTM Engineering | In this episode, Dave is joined by John Short, CEO of Compound Growth Marketing, along with Cammy Keiler, Justin Johnson, and Dan Guenet. Together, they break down the rise of GTM engineering, what it is, how it differs from RevOps, and why B2B teams are investing in it.

Dave and the crew cover:

• The core difference between RevOps and GTM engineering (and why the latter is more focused on building than just integrating)
• Real GTM engineering use cases, from AI-powered sales tools to mid-funnel campaigns that go way beyond ebooks
• How GTM engineers are driving higher revenue per employee and why this role should be one of your first five marketing hires

Whether you’re hiring or just GTM-curious, you’ll leave this episode with a clear definition of the role, real-world examples, and tactical ways GTM engineers drive impact.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro
  
• (03:33) - – Why this topic resonated with 1,200+ registrants
  
• (05:48) - – What even is **GTM engineering?
  
• (08:03) - – GTM engineering vs. RevOps vs. Marketing Ops
  
• (11:18) - – How AI is driving this role forward
  
• (14:28) - – Real examples: ABM campaigns, mid-funnel tools, sales call analysis
  
• (19:38) - – Tools GTM engineers are using today (Clay, Unify, GPTs)
  
• (23:03) - – Role of GTM engineering in revenue per employee
  
• (27:18) - – How GTM engineers enable sales + reduce headcount
  
• (31:33) - – What Dan actually does all day as a GTM engineer
  
• (36:23) - – Custom GPTs for sales and marketing teams
  
• (39:38) - – What MCP servers are (and why they matter)
  
• (44:08) - – Claude, Gamma, and AI-powered content systems
  
• (46:53) - – Why this isn’t just PLG (or ABM, or RevOps)
  
• (50:43) - – When to hire a GTM engineer
  
• (53:23) - – Big feelings about the role (and why they exist)
  
• (55:33) - – Closing thoughts + what to take away

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***

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Dave Gerhardt [00:00:00]:
You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt. All right, what's up, everybody? How you doing? Allison told me there was 90 something people here before we started. So people are. People are here early, which is awesome. My name is Dave Gerhardt. I am the founder of Exit Five. I was going to make up some. I'm the founder, the president, the CEO, the chief meme officer.

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:36]:
I don't know what it is, but my name is Dave. I'm the founder of Exit Five. Exit Five is the top B2B marketing community out there for marketers like you and me who want to grow our careers in this crazy time of AI. It is like unbelievable how fast things are moving and what's happening out there. And so it's a great time to be creating content here at Exit Five. It's a great time to be a marketer. I think I'm choosing the optimist view here. I think it's easy to be negative.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:01]:
I think it's easy to think that the robots and the AI are going to take over the world and ruin our jobs and creativity is done and all that. But I'm going to choose the optimist view. And I think there's a lot of cool potential and use cases for AI and marketing. And I've been saying behind the scenes to people that I maybe went for. I've been talking about this stuff for 15 years now. And I went through a period of a couple years. I was kind of burnt out on it. There's only so much ABM and direct mail.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:25]:
And B2B marketing isn't boring, I promise you that you can talk about. But lately I'm feeling fired up. I'm feeling energized about what's possible with. With AI. And it's given a fun rebirth and a new challenge in marketing. And so I got more energy than ever. I'm starting to get a little tan up here in Vermont because we got some sun. And I'm excited to be hanging out with you all today.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:44]:
And a great feedback, a great signal that we get is when we put out one of these live sessions that we do. Don't call them webinars. They're not. They kind of are. When we do one of these live sessions we do, sometimes we have to do more promotions, sometimes we do less. This one, we sent out like two emails and did two LinkedIn posts about it. We have almost 1200 people registered for this. And that is because I think that this topic.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:05]:
Wtf? What the frig because we don't cur. I curse a lot. My mom told me. She said she listened to one of my videos. She said I curse too much. So wtf is GTM engineering? I think this topic just clearly struck a chord. There's a lot of questions out there. There's a lot of people who want to understand this role or maybe question this role.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:21]:
And so we have an awesome crew from compound growth, marketing and others here to join us today, and we're going to have an awesome discussion. All of these sessions. Exactly. Nick's not a webinar. 100%. Definitely not a webinar. All these sessions are recorded. We'll send that all to you later.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:35]:
The best part about these before I welcome in our guests, Allison, behind the scenes. The best part about these sessions, though, is that it's all marketers in the chat. It's all people like you and me who are doing marketing, have done marketing. And so it's not just about what we say on stage here. It's about the chat. And so I want you to, you know, be an active p. Participant in here. You're obviously here for a reason.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:54]:
If you took an hour out of your day today to come rock with us in one of these things, like, that means there's something you care about. So be active in the chat, help each other out, answer questions. And if you have questions you want us specifically to answer, you can put them in the Q and A. Okay, without further ado, if you can hear me right now, everybody's already writing in, but let me know. I want to know in the chat before we welcome up everybody, I want to know who you are and where you're from, but I also want to know, why did you come to this. Why come to this GTM engineering session? What do you want to know? Why did you decide to come from this? Victoria's in Boston. Christina is in Vienna. Vienna waits for you.

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:28]:
Dylan is in Austin, Texas. Shout out to you. Laurie's in New York City. Cameron's in Atlanta. Johnny's in Vancouver. Allison. My homies in Asheville. Quebec City.

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:39]:
We got Toronto, standup. Jersey. Jersey via San Diego. Nobody's told me why they want to be here today so far, but all right. Here, Liz. I'm Liz from nyc. Curious about GTM engineers and if I need one on my team, want to know working with cold IQ GTM engineers and want a better understanding. Okay, awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:54]:
All right, good. We got the right group of people here. Allison, why don't you send. Send up our. Send up our crew What a response. Holy smokes. Jim Holben has entered the chat. Good to see you, Jim.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:03]:
Bring gonna bring a, a GTM engineer on board. Christine's in here. I don't know what the GTM engineering is. Adam says I think I am one. Definitely. I'm a GTM engineer too. Right John? I don't know about that. Toronto want to know what the hype is all about? Man, this is crazy.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:19]:
All right, awesome. All right, so real quick, let's do, let's do around the horn. Tell me who you are, what do you do for work and that'll just quick intro to set context for our faces and our voices and then we'll hop in today. John, our feelers leader over here at cgm, kick us off sir.

John Short [00:04:37]:
Great. Yeah, I'm John. I'm the CEO over at Compound Growth Marketing. I spent the first decade of my career in house building out performance marketing teams and then started compound Growth marketing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:48]:
Cool. All right, let's go, let's go around the horn.

Cammy Keiler [00:04:52]:
I'm Tammy. I'm chief customer officer here at Compound Growth Marketing. I come from a zero to one tech startup inside of a series B services startup. So Atlas was the name of the software. It's a network led growth product product. And before that I spent about 15 years at a global ad agency actually mostly doing B2C marketing. And so I've sort of spent the gamut on either end of the spectrum doing large kind of consumer real like advertising campaigns down to like 0 to 1 wearing every single hat, developing end to end customer experience from go to market all the way down to actual consumer experience on the, on the CS side of things before joining the team here. Really excited to be here.

Cammy Keiler [00:05:36]:
Thanks for having me.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:37]:
Yeah, good to have you here, Justin. What about you, sir?

Justin Johnson [00:05:40]:
I'm one on the call that's not part of the compound growth team. So my name's Justin. I'm head of marketing at a company called connexpay. I'm coming to you from central Florida. I'm actually in my first marketing role in this capacity. So I come from a life of product. I've been in product for a long time both as a creative director, designer, managing managing product teams. So that's my background.

Justin Johnson [00:06:00]:
Always been in B2B SaaS. New to payments but big fan of the Exit Five community and happy to be here with you guys.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:07]:
Appreciate that. All right, nice to see you, Dan.

Dan Guenet [00:06:10]:
Everyone, my name is Dan. I am a GTM engineering lead. As you can see on the screen, I have a background in Rev Ops. And I actually got this role through Exit Five. So quick, shout out right there. Me and John connected on Exit Five and the rest is history.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:25]:
Love that. All right, so my question straight out of the gate is, can we, can we try to like, back this up first? And there's been this rise of GTM engineering. I'm going to let you, with this crew here, try to try to define this. Let's let. Sometimes people get mad. We'll do a webinar, not. I said webinar. We'll talk for 40 minutes and then someone be like, you never define the thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:49]:
So let's, let's come out of the gate and say, what is a GTM engineer? What is that role today? And then I want to kind of get back a little bit and talk about where, how did this role come from. Isn't this just marketing ops? Marketing ops. First there was marketing ops then and don't yell at me. This is my opinion. First there was marketing ops and marketing ops became Rev Ops and now Rev Ops has become GTM engineering. Am I understanding that right? What's the role of GTM engineering today? Let's start there.

John Short [00:07:16]:
I want to pass the ball over to Cammie pretty quickly, but I want to recognize that we're in an upgrade cycle in the economy and, and what that means to us. When we think about that at compound growth marketing, we're seeing increased new technologies come onto the scene that are enabling new products to come into the market faster and find scale and offer new capabilities oriented around artificial intelligence. So that is one key thing that's happening. As a result of that. We're seeing fragmentation from like where you used to be able to do everything inside of HubSpot or you had some major service providers who are providing utilities in certain ways. We're seeing a lot more tools come onto the market, which is requiring teams to connect systems together in order to work efficiently with the best technology out there. I also think capitalism works in really interesting ways where one of the killer use cases of artificial intelligence is its ability to make engineering teams more efficiently. So at the same time that we're all kind of starting to be concerned about our jobs, we're concerned about what's going to happen with, with engineering jobs on product.

John Short [00:08:35]:
There's an incredible amount of flow of, of talent coming into the market who are looking for opportunities in different places than they originally were. They may have been working on, on product initially at Facebook, but now they can take a lot of that engineering and systems mindset and Bring it into other capacities inside the organization as well. And so I think there's a lot going on. But you know, the kind of driver of this is significant technological change and a rebuilding of the marketing technology stack.

Dave Gerhardt [00:09:11]:
Kim, you want to build on that?

Cammy Keiler [00:09:12]:
Yeah, I think that's a really good. A really good preface as to like what's happening at the widest scale. I think drilling down to the role, it itself. For me, I think about like the actual definition of like the back end of the. Of the role is the signifier of operations versus engineering. I think about operations as someone who exists inside of existing systems, who's operating inside of existing systems. Whereas an engineer can exist inside of existing systems, but is usually building systems. And then I don't know.

Dave Gerhardt [00:09:46]:
Did you see in the chat, by the way, Vlad had a good comment to build on that, which is like a rev ops ads and integration GT GTM engineering built.

Cammy Keiler [00:09:53]:
Right. So like if you think about existing systems versus building them, that's usually how I think about operations versus engineering. So I think Vlad's right. I think about the front end of those job sort of titles as the fluency of, you know, the language that you speak. So revenue. I think you skew more sales. Like you're right. There was probably a.

Cammy Keiler [00:10:16]:
It started as markups and then, you know, you sort of became rev ops because you had to be fluent in both sales and marketing. And I think the expectation of it go to market fluency is really end to end. The motion itself is your. Are you product led versus sales led? If you are a product led, you know, if the, if the. If the business motion is product led, you have to know that you can't just rely on sales. You have.

Dave Gerhardt [00:10:44]:
Okay, okay. All right, I'm vibing. I under. I understand before I keep building on this. Dan. Justin, anything worth adding on this before we go deeper into GTM engineering?

Dan Guenet [00:10:56]:
Yeah, I love how you said marketing ops to revops to GTM Engineering because that's literally my career path right there. Just riding the wave there. But I guess the big difference and I feel like a lot of people are confused where RevOps ends and where GTM engineering begins. Right?

Dave Gerhardt [00:11:11]:
Yeah. Just to build on that while you would. Not to interrupt you while we build on this. Like the question in my head is like, so if I'm the cmo, am I gonna do I now need both of these things? Like. Or you just have you just evolved into that role, right, Dan?

Dan Guenet [00:11:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And when I was in Revops, like the thought process I had is how Can I enable everyone? Right? Like, how can I give them the data they need, the processes they need to do their jobs, actionable data that they can use to be a little bit better? So getting everybody up to that 100% mark, right. And in this new role in GTM engineering, I'm kind of thinking, okay, what can I do to give us a competitive edge? Not entirely a support role for everyone, but what competitive edge can I give us in our go to market motion? And how can I get us above that 100% line? Right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:11:55]:
Are we going back to like, the era of like, having a growth hacker on the marketing team? Is it closer to that?

Dan Guenet [00:12:01]:
I think, I think it's similar, right? Like, I think that's there have been like, large teams that have spurred and organizations where they, they have brought engineering into marketing before. Like, this isn't a new concept per se, but it's just something that you couldn't do at a, at a smaller org, right? And now with these new tools coming up, it enables that kind of mindset.

Cammy Keiler [00:12:21]:
Again, I feel like. Sorry, go ahead.

Justin Johnson [00:12:24]:
Well, I was going to say. So I agree with everything you guys have said, for sure. Um, Cam, when you were talking about the, you know, the engineering, like the second half of the title being indicative of where time is spent, the two words that keep coming up for me when I think about the engineering side of go to market is like, architecture and scale. And so for, like, for a marketer thinking about being able to zoom out and come up with that strategy for connecting disparate systems with all the new tools and the new ways that we have of doing it now, it's much more of an architecture mindset. It's being able to scale that like anything that we do now has to be able to scale rapidly and almost lean more towards like personalized ABM marketing, where before that was a really separate initiative, but now you can kind of skirt the edge of that just with better tooling.

Dave Gerhardt [00:13:06]:
Can you all try to take me a level deeper on this here? One of my questions is like, okay, I got it. You got a gtm. Like, I can understand why you might want to have a GTM engineer on the team, but what's different now than like 10 years ago? Because I haven't been a marketing leader in a while, but in a future, in a past life, we hired an engineer to be on the marketing team and her job was to like, you know, hack stuff together and have development skills that we didn't have in house. And we've also had, you know, Everybody's seen the Martech, you know, landscape. There's already been 30,000, 50,000, you know, SaaS tools for marketers to use. And so what is it about AI specifically that makes this GTM engineering thing more relevant than ever? Maybe there's something to build on with where Justin was going with the infrastructure and architecture and scale. But I want to try to drill into that and you know, understanding that like maybe not everybody on this call is an engineer. So what, what is it that's happened with AI in the last year or so that makes this different than like yeah, we already had 50,000 software tools.

Dave Gerhardt [00:14:13]:
Like I needed someone to integrate that and I needed someone, you know, marketing has been tech enabled for a while now. I've always needed somebody to be able to write code. So. So what's different now?

Cammy Keiler [00:14:21]:
I think it goes back 14 years ago. So we're on, we tend to be on set seven year cycles. So there's like what was it 14 years ago? It was, it was big data. Big data was the thing like Clive humbly said that you know, data was the new oil. And then seven years ago it was machine learning. We were in the era of machine learning. And so there was like oil refinement, right? And then now it's all about, we're in the AI era where AI is now universally available to everybody. And so we no longer need data scientists to make sense of all the data that now like everybody is their own data scientist.

Cammy Keiler [00:14:56]:
And so what that means is that like now product is no longer remote because literally anyone and their mom can make a product. So what that now means is that your moat is network effects. So the person who wins or the company that wins is the fastest to get the first customer on. Because the first customer on means the second customer can get on and the fourth customer get on and the eighth customer can get on. And so your network effects can start to take effect. And so that means that your product has to be as simple as possible to buy. And that means that your go to market motion has to be treated like a product. And what makes that different is that the products available.

Cammy Keiler [00:15:36]:
So what's different like the go to market engineer now different than the rev ops person before or the like the growth hacker of your in that kind of capacity, as you were kind of calling it Dave, that what's different now is the software is just different. And so software is not clunky anymore, it's not going to be clunky in the future. It is going to be incredibly easy to adopt you won't have the same switching costs to implode the, the entire organization. And something is, you know, better, faster, cheaper. And so I think there is just going to be so much more available and you can actually just work towards outcomes. And rather than adopting all of these sort of like complex workflows that take a team to hack together or incredible experts with like crazy, you know, degrees to act together. And so I think it's really about people who are just really, really focused on increasing the revenue per employee, both from two angles. One is getting your sales team more, you know, essentially more enabled, as Dan was saying, getting them plus 100%.

Cammy Keiler [00:16:41]:
And then two, getting revenue per employee down, trying to reduce headcount in the.

Dave Gerhardt [00:16:47]:
In the Org for the marketers here. Like, since this is a marketing focus session, like I get a bunch of it about, you know, products are getting built, but I think for most people here, this role would sit on the marketing team. So what are some specific examples? Maybe you're seeing from customer. Other people in the world that like GTM engineers are. I, I still don't really know what they're doing. Like, they're just, there's just a lot of, there's a lot of big words from all of you about, you know, infrastructure and integration. But like, what, what do they, what do they do? Do they, you know, is it like what Tom Wentworth did, which I saw this week, he's the CMO of a cybersecurity company. Their developer tools, whatever, they do something I don't understand.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:25]:
They made like they did like a custom ABM campaign because they want to get anthropic as a customer. And so they made some like, you know, they growth hacked or GTM engineered some, some video game and that's a cool play. Is it that stuff? Like, I need more specific examples. Otherwise I'm just going to leave this call thinking like, yeah, this is just another buzzword or someone in the chat said like, it's just. Is this just Clay trying to like create a category around GTM engineering?

John Short [00:17:51]:
I think that's a great point. So I'd love to kind of go into some of the examples that we've built. We're big fans of Tom here and so that's one of the campaigns that we've actually had the opportunity to work with him on. And a good example too, how I think a go to market engineer.

Dave Gerhardt [00:18:09]:
Wait, you guys did that with him?

John Short [00:18:11]:
We're working on the ABM campaign with incident. Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:18:15]:
Cool.

John Short [00:18:16]:
And so it's a good, I mean, Tom is the ultimate go to market engineer. I think he was one of the first people to build on top of the Drift API and really think about how to use the tool in different ways. You know, I would look at, if I were a company today, I'd look at breaking out the go to market engineering into different functions inside the funnel. To think about like the mid intent funnel, what are the different offers that we could build using Lovable and some of the other tools out there to capture customers when they're in pain. How can we get in front of those users and build a really strong engagement point for them? I think another interesting use case is we now have so much scale. We've been recording calls using Gong, Chorus, Fathom, all the call recorders recently. And so another interesting use case that we've been digging into and even seeing some of our customers using is how do we analyze call data to understand intent but also how can we start to use that for attribution, Self reported attribution. We don't just need to ask people to fill some really good stuff.

Dave Gerhardt [00:19:29]:
There's some really good stuff in there. Wow. Like, okay, we're getting warmer here. I'm taking notes. So John, you've always been advocate of this mid of mid. This mid funnel stuff which is like for anybody that hasn't listened to me and John's conversations over the years, which I don't know why you would have maybe 200 of you that, that have been around. But basically like, you know, John's always kind of advocated for this. Like if you, especially in the world of B2B you hit a B2B website and typically the, the main action on the website is to drive someone to get a demo, contact sales, get pricing, request a quote, right? And like those are things that are much further down the funnel.

Dave Gerhardt [00:20:09]:
And like when I'm ready to buy, that's when I'm going to contact sales. I'm never like, you know what I got, I got an afternoon to kill. Why don't, why don't I contact sales for this piece of software I'm thinking about buying and see what, see what it can be. And so you know, we've talked a lot about companies that have been built great tools and basically built products as marketing over the years. So things that come to mind and feel free to put your ideas in the chat. But like HubSpot's website Grader is like the OG example of this, right? They sold SEO software and they created this amazing tool that if you'd put your website in it would tell you all the things that were broken and wrong with it and how to fix them. And then like behind the scenes, they now know that the person who filled that out, like has an SEO problem and they can help them. Another one was Optimizely.

Dave Gerhardt [00:20:50]:
They used to have a way to, you know, preview a B tests on your website. Right. At Drift, we built a way to test the bot on our website. And so that's kind of cool now where you're like, okay, if I got a GTM engineer on my team, instead of, you know, gated content and ebooks, like we can really build some like high, high intent, like mid funnel tools here. And we're all sitting on this gold mine of like all these sales calls and customer calls that we have. It's not just like V1 of this listening to Gong to understand pain points. It's like I can now take all of this data and use it, you know, use an alarm to basically understand trends and understand topics and key objections. And then we can have a GTM engineer, like build some experiences around this stuff so we can get people to interact with our stuff.

John Short [00:21:34]:
Is it going in 100%? Yeah. So I think part of the role here that we're talking about is there's like an element of R and D. I think Justin said that last week when we had a conversation about this. But there is a piece of, we have tons of unstructured data that we're now figuring out how to structure in order to pull insights from it. So Dave, you've been a proponent of, you know, we don't need to measure everything. We we just kind of intuitively need know that things are working for us because they're different. But you know, there are ways now that a go to market engineer can scan through GONG calls to even listen to the messaging of how customers are talking about a product or a category to understand how certain companies are having a influence on the market. Right.

John Short [00:22:27]:
Thinking back to the Drift days, you guys had conversational marketing. So it would be interesting if after you had launched that to listen to the sales calls and see how many times that the prospects who are looking at purchasing drift, we're using that in the conversation versus using some of the language that maybe your competitor at the time Intercom was using in their marketing messaging. And so like I think there, there's a customer feedback component to this of we can take this call data, we can route it into Air Ops or we can route it into Clay, we can use it for messaging and helping us improve Our ad copy. We can use it to help us build a Persona GPT for our customers so that we can understand how customers are thinking about this and even simulate the objections that they may have in the sales process or to some of the messaging or ads that we put up across the Internet. We can use that GPT to get feedback on how they'll respond to the website. Website copy. So there's a ton of use cases that we can use just from that one prospect and customer feedback site.

Dave Gerhardt [00:23:44]:
Dan, Cammie, Justin, I love that you.

Justin Johnson [00:23:46]:
Talked about getting the data into a source where you can make use of it, because that's something I'm toying with. Like, we use anthropic. So I've got Claude set up with a couple different projects. So I'm trying to centralize. Like, I think part of this engineering process is training your AI with the absolute best information that you can and organizing it incredibly well for future use, not just by yourself, but, like, as your team grows. I don't know what it would look like to open up Claude to a sales team. I don't think many of us probably want to think about that necessarily. But like, if.

Justin Johnson [00:24:14]:
If people could go crazy with content but have it all be centralized to your. To your product brain that's really well constructed for constant output and iteration. I think that's a big part of the engineering role too.

Dave Gerhardt [00:24:25]:
This is a perfect example of Matt's messaging on the side of my team. I'm all fired up because this is the stuff when I'm like, yeah, this is what's fun. This is like what we can make fun with marketing and this is where we can build great things. It was like in the past, it was like, let's make an ebook and you're going to download it and then sales is going to call you. But now what if we can take all this data and actually build a meaning? Because I still think that the best way to help somebody, the best way to get something, to buy something, is to help them in whatever capacity. Whether you're a real estate agent and you're gonna have, you know, make an amazing drone flyover mock up of the house and like picture yourself at the house. Like, I need to. If I'm gonna go spend a hundred thousand dollars on a B2B product or 100, you know, whatever it is, I need to feel good about that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:08]:
I need to feel like that company helped me. That company understands me. That's going to happen later on in the sales process. But up front, man, if I Had some tool. If I use your tool to like improve some process of mine, like I used you know, optimizely so you know, website conversion tool back in the day and like they helped me out for free and gave me a bunch of opportunities here and now I have to upgrade and talk to their sales team and buy the product to get the full thing. Like that's where the, that's where the gold here is, is like we can get back to doing really good marketing stuff. And then as the copywriter, storyteller, nerd in me, I love the stuff about using the customer. All the customer calls.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:46]:
John mentioned this Persona GPT. Basically you're missing out on a huge opportunity today if you don't have your ideal customer profile and your customer Persona is like nailed and then you know, whether you use Claude or ChatGPT or whatever and you're constantly writing and iterating copy based on that and you have this kind of brain that really understands your customers. Imagine being able to go and say, hey, what are the most common objections for the last six months on our sales call? And I know that as a marketer and I can address some of those things. You know, heads up, going in question for our, this, this question in the chat. I'm curious to hear this from our, from our panelists. Everything that we're talking right now. Christine, I'm not, this is not who I think you are. I'm just kind of, this is how I read this like.

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:29]:
But isn't that just plg? How do we answer that?

John Short [00:26:33]:
What isn't what just plg?

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:36]:
Everything. Hello, everything. We've just been talking about like the, this like marketing stuff, creating marketing tools. Like in that example, like these mid funnel tools. Isn't that just plg? Or are we just going to have a silly debate about like names? What do you think?

John Short [00:26:49]:
Yeah, I mean I, I've seen that. Isn't this just for a lot of things?

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:53]:
Right?

John Short [00:26:53]:
So we're.

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:54]:
Isn't this just abm? Isn't this just good marketing?

John Short [00:26:56]:
Isn't this just rev ops with AI? Like yeah, yeah. So I think partially it's, it's a challenge to kind of answer all of those at once and that and have everybody ask these like different questions. But then you know, we're kind of looking at it and I've been asked, isn't this just five different things and now we have the ability to put this all into one function.

Dave Gerhardt [00:27:18]:
So yeah, I think, I think my, my read on that is like on, on plg and this is not to get into the nuance of definition but like PLG to me is like if the true definition of product led growth, which is like you, you have Slack and then Slack has a free plan and you try to get people in the free, free plan and upgrade them. I see this more as like we're using data and, and design and creativity and engineering to build tools that ele the marketing funnel. And yeah, you might this GTM engineering concept, you might not be a PLG company at all. You might sell something that is like super high touch. Like PLG also means like really touchless. Right? Like I don't, I don't have to talk to somebody. I don't have to like do this crazy onboarding. It's very, you know, low friction.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:01]:
But you could sell a really high end infrastructure type of product that is not PLJ at all. But what we're talking about is using this new kind of role in marketing to create, to basically have the power of a developer on your marketing team to make more interactive and engaging marketing content than kind of just the standard content playbook.

John Short [00:28:20]:
Yeah, and one thing I'd call out is when I was working inside PLG companies like when I was at Workable and I was at Yesware and I was at Log me in, sometimes that funnel is limiting because you're looking to drive a user in when they're looking to access their, when they are looking to set up email tracking or they're looking to build an integration between Gmail and their Salesforce instance in Yesware's case. So I was sometimes limited by the funnel and the lens that I could bring users in to the product and ultimately drive them in. So in order to expand the opportunities to engage with those customers, that's where I would create a mid intent funnel in order to get users to start to understand. So in Yesware's case, we knew that when somebody was in market they were looking for email tracking or they were looking for ways to connect their inbox with Salesforce automatically. But before they had that use case they may be looking for email templates to share across their sales organization. And so we built out a mid intent offer for free email templates. And so I think the mid Intent funnel is not meant to be plg. It is meant to expand the breadth of helping you identify customers who are coming into market and ultimately going to be looking for a solution like yours in the near future.

John Short [00:29:50]:
And I think the same was true with, with Test Drive at Drift Dave when, when you launched that and then we came on board and supported running Facebook ads to that. The challenge was that the PLG funnel wasn't working for a segment of your audience and you had a part of your audience that needed to build the case internally in order to get drift to the table and be able to have a conversation about it. And so I think in a sales led motion sometimes you do want those high engagement great brand moments to ultimately push users down funnel and generate that velocity.

Justin Johnson [00:30:31]:
I also saw something that Imran just put in the chat in terms of PLG companies usually need a free or a light version of their, of their software. So coming from a sales led organization, I guess the way that I I look at it is for a product led company they can pull somebody into the story, into the brand story sooner by getting that buy in on trying it out on a temporary basis. But for, for sales led companies that have like longer buying cycles and the threshold is higher, I think it's, I think it's a way for us to tell a better story before somebody starts becoming engaged with the brand. So since we don't have that opportunity for like a light or a free version, it's how much of a better story can I surround my, my product with my user stories with all of those types of things to get them engaged in the brand rather rather than the the free model.

John Short [00:31:16]:
There was a good question in the chat about the revenue per employee and thinking about shout out to come back to Kami's comment on revenue per employee. This feels like a core deliverable for what this role is focused on Efficiency is the role. Now I love that that call out and I think that's good area to dive in a little bit deeper because I do think there are KPIs associated.

Dave Gerhardt [00:31:41]:
Let's. Let's first explain. Let's first explain just like the the like the metric of revenue per employee and also in the context of marketing like why why do I care about revenue per employee? I'm a marketer on the. I'm a marketer at the company. My job is to generate pipeline for the, for the company. Like that's revenue for. For employee. That's like the CEO and CFO's job.

Dave Gerhardt [00:32:02]:
I'm going to run campaigns to build pipelines.

Cammy Keiler [00:32:04]:
I mean maybe agree to disagree on that Dave because I think that revenue per employee is absolutely something that go to market and marketing within that should be either contributing to if not directly attributing to because there are three levers that go to market can control. One is volume of sales. Like so pipeline Right. Like one is velocity and also contract size. So the other, I think where, where go to market engineering is really helpful in terms of driving efficiencies is like what data flows, where to what taxonomy and how are you thinking about, you know, who, who needs to see what, where and how. And if like sales enablement is a core component of how it is that like go to market engineering is thinking about their job and, and what it is that they're effectively trying to do, then the salespeople who are responsible for looking at the CRM and helping and all the intent signals of their key account lists, I think helping to drive any one of those levers at a higher velocity is absolutely contributes to revenue per employee. So you're trying to get them to either close more deals faster or at higher contract values. And then the other way to look at revenue per employee, even if you don't drive more revenue, you can reduce headcount.

Cammy Keiler [00:33:29]:
So you can make that headcount more, you can make the company more efficient. So revenue goes up per headcount.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:38]:
And, and what, what role does the GTM reduce the headcount?

Cammy Keiler [00:33:42]:
So you would just be slightly more efficient.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:46]:
So you have, so instead of having multiple people on the team, ideally you can have a gtm, a GTM engineer who's able to basically be like a, the concept of like 10x engineer but for someone on the marketing team. Exactly one person with AI and tools to do.

Cammy Keiler [00:34:00]:
Instead of four rev ops people, you have one go to market engineer that is supported by multiple agents or something.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:07]:
Got it. And by the way, I wasn't, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Like obviously revenue per employee is super important. I'm just trying to like put myself in the shoes of like totally the average marketing manager at the company. Like I get there's a, this, like I see people write about this on LinkedIn and it's like, you know, SaaS marketing sucks and it's broken. Like the marketing team doesn't care about, you know, CAC and the profitability. I'm like, do you think that the average 24 year old marketing manager at a SaaS company has like the, the fingers on the controls of the profitability of the company? Like they don't gonna execute. I'm not saying that's a, that's a good thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:41]:
I'm just saying at most companies it is not. They don't have the breakdown. And so like we shouldn't be yelling.

Cammy Keiler [00:34:46]:
Yelling at this, yelling at a middle manager for anything. Yes, agreed. Yeah, but I, I Think. I do think that there should be fluency of everybody in the marketing function about what senior leadership actually cares about. I think that is.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:59]:
Absolutely. And that that's usually the crux of the. The issue in. In marketing is, like, so many things come down to, like, what is the company strategy? What are the company goals? Okay, everybody's on me in the chat right now. We gotta get Dan in the mix and he's. He's hijacking the chat. He's doing a great job. People just wanna know, like, look, you brought Dan on this thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:17]:
We haven't even let the guy talk. They want to know what he does all day as a GTM engineer. So Dan. Dan was. Dan already signed himself up for an Exit FiveAMA on this, so you better bring the heat right now, my friend.

Dan Guenet [00:35:28]:
Yeah, no, I actually came to this event to figure out what I should be doing all day. So, no, I'm just great. I think, to preface, have you tried Claude? Have I tried Claude? Not yet. No. To preface the answer, I think if I'm doing the same thing in six months that I'm doing today, I think I've failed as a GTM engineer. Like, I think stuff is about to change in a big, meaningful way. Some areas I'm spending a lot of my time in right now is. And I know people clowned on this clay and unifi and tools like that, testing them out, seeing what I can do when I create tables of target accounts, existing customers, what data points we can pull in, what actions we can trigger from that.

Dan Guenet [00:36:04]:
That's the focus right now. I spent a good amount of time trying to upskill our internal employees on how to use tools like ChatGPT. And what I found is some people have a really hard time with prompting, so I kind of shifted that a bit and spending some time building out like a library of custom GPTs that kind of enables our sales team. And I think this is going to be something we're going to see a lot of people like, kind of seeing some of their custom GPTs for people to kind of look into and pick and choose and bring into their own companies and adjust them to make them more relevant to your use case.

Dave Gerhardt [00:36:35]:
Can you explain for people on here who might be like the average lightweight ChatGPT users, can you explain custom GPTs, what they are, how they work, and how do you share them with the sales team?

Dan Guenet [00:36:48]:
Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to when you're using ChatGPT. You know, you're putting in your prompt, right? It's very similar to that, except for you find instances where there's reusable tasks. So tasks where you're going to be running this over and over again. Like if you're an agency and you're reviewing for every one of your clients all their nurture email sequences. Right. Well, it would make sense to make a custom GPT which is just a set of instructions you give chatgpt so that when you paste in a subject line and the body content of an email, it goes through and says, hey, here are the nine criteria that I want you to look at this email through the lenses of. And I want you to provide feedback on how we're doing in those nine areas and then give actionable feedback on what we should do next with this email.

Dan Guenet [00:37:30]:
Is it good? Do we need to make improvements? And so it's just an instruction set for the GPT to kind of give a frame of reference of the request. Right. It's really powerful when you have these reusable use cases within your teams. But yeah, so spending some time building that out for our team internally and also for our clients as well of like, what can we share with them? And then I think there's this kind of third area where I'm kind of dabbling in now and I think it's more exploratory now. But I think somebody brought up MCP and chat model context protocol and this has kind of been hot in the streets.

Dave Gerhardt [00:38:05]:
Yeah. Can you explain this to me? Like my second grader, everybody's talking about MCP every time I open LinkedIn. Oh, you guys need an MVP server for this. And I'm like, I think there's a lot of people talking about this, but they don't actually know really what it is. I don't know what it is. What? I'm just a thought leader guy. But can we explain why is this topic becoming really relevant now? Why does. Why is Tom Wentworth asking tools that he uses to.

Dave Gerhardt [00:38:29]:
To build their own. To let him build their own. His own MCP server. Can somebody explain this to me like I'm a child?

Dan Guenet [00:38:34]:
For sure, yeah. So I think an MC server, it's basically an instruction set for LLMs for tools like ChatGPT to interact with tools and pull data out of it with context. Right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:38:46]:
So right now use an example while you explain it like a popular tool that marketers use.

Dan Guenet [00:38:51]:
I'll talk about HubSpot because they just came out with their own like first party MCP server. So basically HubSpot, you know, before they came out with their mcp if you were had an LLM and you wanted it to pull data from HubSpot, it'd be using the API. Kind of like how most tools interact with HubSpot. The MCP server creates. How do I simplify this more? It creates instructions basically where it's like, hey, if you get a request that's like, hey, give me all like my top 10 contacts. Like it, it shows it how to pull all the contacts and then pull the information it needs to to give the right output to the end user. So it's just more instructions on how to use the API for the LLM basically is a really simplified way of saying it. And so that's where I think right now I'm testing a lot of agents right now.

Dan Guenet [00:39:35]:
Zapier agent I'm looking at because they have a nice free tier and I'm doing some stuff and I'm not entirely happy with the output. Right. And it's because it doesn't have all the data it needs to when it talks to HubSpot right now. I don't think they've adopted the MCP yet. And so I was like, hey, give me this contact and tell me all the recent activity on the contact and summarize it before I hop on a call. And it didn't do a good job of pulling the activity associated with contact. That's because it didn't have any instruction on how it would go about doing that. So that, that's where I think as more tools come out with MCPs, like, agents are going to become a lot more powerful.

Dan Guenet [00:40:10]:
You're going to have marketers who, you know, have agents that every day look at all their campaigns and LinkedIn and call out any ones that are eating up budget but aren't performing any results. And you know, it might message you in the morning and say, hey, these campaigns aren't working really well. Do you want to remove take budget away? And if it has right access, you know, you could say yes, take it budget away and then it will like turn off the faucet for those. So that's kind of an actionable thing that I don't think we can do right now. But as these MCPs become, you know, more prevalent agents are going to be. And that's where I think in six months I hope that I'll be spending a lot of time on is how do we enable people through agents.

Dave Gerhardt [00:40:46]:
Cool. The agents. The agent examples are. The agent examples are great. Which is like, oh my gosh, there's so many things that I could think about right now that are kind of daily, weekly rhythms and routines that we do in marketing. Whether it's website analytics or monitoring social or monitoring ad campaigns, we all work out a Slack like to just have a bot that could basically send us updates in Slack or it's like, hey Dave, here's. Here's a recap. I used Dharmesh's like agent AI.

Dave Gerhardt [00:41:14]:
I sent it to Matt and Dan on our team last week and I was like, here's a. Here's a summary of your most popular LinkedIn post over the last six months and here are the trends and here are the key topics and like, stuff like that is super useful. So would you as a company. I'm a writer, not a. Not a tech guy. Would you as a company, like, would we at Exit Five have our own MCP server? And like we would connect to all of these other tools and like that's where all of our stuff would live.

Dan Guenet [00:41:38]:
You would probably consume NCP servers rather than have your own. Unless you have like a database where you're storing some data and you want to expose that to LLMs. Okay, I think real quick, the one thing I. My example was a good example, except for it only touched upon one system. I think where a lot of power will come is when these LLMs can interact with multiple data sources and pull the data together and bridge that gap. I think that's another really exciting thing that hopefully will happen.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:05]:
Anybody want to build on those. On those. Anything else?

Justin Johnson [00:42:09]:
The use case that I'm looking at just as like another. Hopefully we can get there soon. I made the comment earlier about enabling salespeople to go run with a custom GPT for creating marketing materials. The idea of using an MCP to connect. You know what I've been building with Claude for my product marketing brand projects where all that knowledge is stored. Being able to connect those to a service like Gamma as an example and be able to start having conversations between Claude and Gamma where the content is going straight from one tool to the other based on a series of prompts and being able to just continue decreasing that time to market so that you can test ideas faster and get more tailored stuff out there.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:47]:
A lot of Dan fans in the chat right now. This is like great. They want this tactical stuff. They want this specific stuff. I tried last night. I was trying to make. I was like, why can't I just. I had to schedule an event on my calendar and it's very umbersome to click five times into Google Calendar and I was like why can't I just go to my chat GPT and write in my chat GPT and say book a call with John short tomorrow at 1pm on my calendar.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:10]:
And I thought you could do it with Zapier and Chat GPT but I think their, their integration was busted and I couldn't do it. I got to work on that later. But these like mini recipes and that's just a silly one. Like I want to operate as a mar. As my life and a marketer I'm getting used to. And I was listening to Jason Lemkin talk about this earlier in the week. Like software tools are. There's going to be a big disruption happening where like we are all getting used to now writing text based prompts to these tools and getting this amazing output.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:38]:
And so I want to be able to say, put a meeting on my calendar tomorrow at 3 o' clock to you know, and just write a voice command or write two lines of text to be able to do that. Think about all the other things in marketing that we now expect to be able to do that. It's like there's a world where like why would I ever log into Salesforce ever, ever again?

Cammy Keiler [00:43:57]:
100%.

John Short [00:43:59]:
We've been using Day AI as the CRM for compound growth marketing. They are starting to play around with agents and so we have those capabilities inside some of the tools that we're using already. The one thing that I would kind of underline there is in order to be able to write those prompts and connect with Salesforce and have Salesforce talk to HubSpot and then have HubSpot collect data from Clay, you need to have the proper wiring set up inside of your business. And so I think marketing is moving towards the state of simplicity where there's going to be less need for specialists and more need for generalists who can do a lot of different things in a lot of different ways. You know, that prompt I think is a great example of why we need to focus on building systems that are building software into systems that talk to each other and allow you to spin up a campaign by writing a prompt and having it talk to Canva and HubSpot and all the different platforms.

Justin Johnson [00:45:05]:
Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:06]:
Actually I saw in. In one of our notes that I meant to get back to, there was a Justin. A note from something Justin did with like Claude and. And Gen Spark. Is that A or gamma maybe? Did you build something like that?

Justin Johnson [00:45:16]:
So well, we had somebody on our Rev Ops team build a. So an onboarding application is a big part of our process, somebody in the com, there's somebody in the chat was talking about, you know, time to revenue. So for us that's something that's actually really important. We, we send people through this application process for underwriting and we've been leaning on classic form tools like JotForm, all the different ones that are out there. But one of our guys on the RevOps team went and used Claude code and built a fully customizable configurable onboarding workflow for our customers that was just top notch. And being able to do stuff like that, like this idea of prototyping and bringing things out faster is one of the big things that I'm seeing add value in a big way. So that's, that's an example of like when you get somebody in the pipeline or in, in the door, that's another example of how you can get them faster through the revenue.

Dave Gerhardt [00:46:05]:
Nice. I like it. I, I, I think there's just a, it now to me is the time to question everything. Like I'm trying to even do it in my personal life and just like how I would go through and create something in the past is, is different now. And so it's like yeah, okay, I could use can oh canva and I'm going to use Gamma and I'm going to write this chat GBT prompt. I think it's like you gotta force yourself to try to try to learn some of these things. And I also think that's how we go beyond the like V. One of this AI stuff was just like AI there's a lot of AI slop AI generated content and I, I love it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:46:37]:
I think that is, I lick my chops when I see that stuff and see people talking about it because I think that for real marketers, for people understand the craft of marketing, the art of storytelling and building a brand and positioning and creative like huge opportunity. Marketing is not AI slop. That's just going to be like, yeah, you didn't buy a $200,000 piece of software because that company wrote like a cute listicle back in the day. It's, it's going to be the same thing. And so it's going to get, you know, it's going to make marketing really hopefully do, do meaningful stuff and matter again. Okay, we have a couple, we obviously this, this went by really fast. We have a, I'll try to get to a couple questions but I know that the CGM team is good at marketing and they're good at, they're thoughtful on this Stuff and so we're going to give them, we'll give you guys all these Q and A's. And John, I'm sure you and the team will probably maybe like write, write up responses to these.

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:24]:
There's a lot of follow up that we could do for this. And by the way, anybody in the chat that was chirping me about, you know, you came to this to understand what GTM engineering is like, you could have just gone to chat GBT and asked what the heck is GTM engineering? Like, you didn't have to come to this. So that's, you know, we're all here for a reason.

John Short [00:47:42]:
If people could drop the tools that they're using in their, in their go to market engineering stack, okay. In the chat I'd love to see like, all right, you know, Clay Air Ops do that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:53]:
Now what are you using? What do you, what do you, what are your GTM engineering tools? Mine is like I use this great tool by open AI called Chat GPT. Sick.

Cammy Keiler [00:48:04]:
I want to hear that. And I also feel like this group is a good group to ask the question of. Like there seem to be some really big feelings about go to market engineering. I want to know what those big feelings are. What are these feelings?

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:17]:
What are the big feelings? I think my perspective on it is that the big feelings come from people just roll their eyes whenever Mark, like whenever we create more new, you know, it's just a rebrand. And yeah, that to me is just LinkedIn, like perfect LinkedIn fodder for like marketers to yell at each other about. And I think we as marketers, like I tell my wife about these things, she's like, who cares? She doesn't work in marketing.

Cammy Keiler [00:48:40]:
Yeah, yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:40]:
I think there's just something about marketers being marketers arguing about, well, no, that's always been ABM or Rev up da da. So I don't, I don't think it's anything other than that.

Cammy Keiler [00:48:49]:
So I, I actually, I feel like I have a perspective on that and I, I love when there's a rebrand and the reason why I love it is because I think that it's a signal that the former brand has been diluted that calls for a rebrand. There is this like founder mindset that like there's this need for something new about the role and I think that go to market engineering is like a call for. There's a. What was formerly known as Rev Ops has been so diluted because you're working these in these existing systems and if you're if you're anything like me, like you, you know a person like Dan who is a representative of someone in Revops who's really good and you've worked with some really sucky Rev Ops people. And that big swing of like Dan and Sucky is that that is indicative of what we've all worked with. Now there's this opportunity to like when you post a job posting for a go to market engineer and Revops, you're going to get two very different profiles of people. You're going to get all dans when you post a go to market engineer versus when you post RevOps. To me that's an indicator and I don't know.

Cammy Keiler [00:50:01]:
I like these brands.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:02]:
Yeah, I think it makes sense. Like I'm thinking when I think of Revops, I think of a partner of mine in a previous company and their job was much more like on the reporting side and managing the like SLA between marketing and sales. And the GTM engineer to me is more of like growth hacker creator, you know, making, making landing pages and tools and webs, you know that just, just doing stuff.

Cammy Keiler [00:50:25]:
Yeah. A little more product engineering mindset.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:27]:
Yes. Okay, that's really good. John, do you got. You got the. The chat blew up with a bunch of tools. Some really, some. Some good stuff in there.

John Short [00:50:35]:
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of air ops. Jasper just came up a lot of the LLMs ChatGPT, Claude, some that I need to look into like Reloom IO Oh Justin, you dropped that one in there.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:49]:
I'm just going to make a name right now.

John Short [00:50:51]:
Snake, Trigafy, Common Room. That whole class is really interesting right now.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:57]:
So yeah, let's wrap on this. And then before you leave, we have a poll we need to do. Our AI agent is going to ask you to rate this session and the feedback really, really helps. But just kind of synthesizing a couple questions. Is there a right somebody who's listening to this who kind of gets what the role is and maybe believes in it? Is there like a stage or size of the company or time that it makes sense to bring this? Is this an early stage? Is it later stage? Like when do you think about hiring this. This person?

John Short [00:51:24]:
Yeah, I'd be looking at bringing it in in the first five marketing hires at the very least that you're bringing into the organization? We got an interesting question a couple of weeks ago from somebody who we're talking to works with a lot of different businesses. They were trying to figure out when the right time is to start building AI integration into their business and specifically into the marketing stack. And they wanted to build a base layer for marketing before they started really investing in AI. And you can't get too early here. I think you want to be thinking about how you can grow as efficiently as possible and how you can be reducing the cost to acquire a customer and how you can boosting, boost the revenue per employee. And so I think having a really strong systems thinker, no matter what you want to call them, having a really strong systems thinker in the organization who can help you scale how you use artificial intelligence to create content, to, you know, support product marketing with getting feedback from customers and automate those workflows is going to be really important for any business. So it's one of the first three to five roles that I'd look to bring on in any organization.

Dave Gerhardt [00:52:44]:
Also seems like one of those, like, you know, when, you know, if you're interviewing someone and they're listing off all these tools and they're telling you about things that they built, you know, that's your GTM engineer. Okay, please, real quick, go to. On the, on the top, there's like a polls tab. Go to polls. And we ask you to please rate today's session. Not a, not a webinar. On a scale of 1 to 5. Leave us some feedback.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:05]:
But hey, I had a blast. Like, this was fun riffing with you, with you all. We got some great comments and feedback. The chat was. I'm gonna give it up to the chat today. Our panel is great, but I'm gonna give it up to the chat we had that was electric. We had two hundred and sixty people in here today and like, clearly, passion. I think we got to do more of this.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:23]:
I think people want to hear real specific examples. We gotta, we gotta keep, keep relying on the chat. No, no slides, no promo. This was, this was lovely. Good job all around. Dan, Cammie, Justin, we'll see you all on LinkedIn and in the slacks and emails and around. John, good to see you. All right, I'm out of here.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:40]:
I'm gonna go pick up.

John Short [00:53:41]:
Happy birthday.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:42]:
Thank you. Thank you. It's not about me. Hey, it's not about me. I'm here for the people. But I'll see you all later. Excellent job.

Cammy Keiler [00:53:47]:
We'll see you, everyone.

Justin Johnson [00:53:48]:
All right, thanks, everybody.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:54]:
Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode. You know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So We've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five. And you can go and check that out.

Dave Gerhardt [00:54:09]:
Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on our website, exitfive.com our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing. And there's no better place to do that than with us at Exit Five. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day, asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers. Building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are. So you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free. And then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year.

Dave Gerhardt [00:54:52]:
Go check it out. Learn more exitfive.com and I will see you over there in the community.

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