#282: Research-First CRO: How Data Leads to Better Marketing Decisions with Haley Carpenter

#281 CRO | Matt is joined by Haley Carpenter, founder of Chirpy, a conversion rate optimization agency. Haley has nearly a decade of CRO experience across agency, SaaS, and eCommerce, and she’s known for helping brands use research and testing to make smarter marketing decisions.

Matt and Haley cover:

• Why CRO isn’t just A/B testing, and how research should guide every optimization effort
• How to approach CRO when you don’t have massive website traffic, including scrappy testing methods and tools
• The role of messaging, value props, and social proof in driving higher conversions (and where B2B often lags behind DTC)

By the end, you’ll have a clearer picture of how to approach CRO as a system, not just a set of tests.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro
  
• (02:09) - – Who is Haley Carpenter
  
• (03:09) - – What CRO really means
  
• (06:09) - – Research vs. testing explained
  
• (10:09) - – Where to start CRO on a website
  
• (13:09) - – Testing with limited traffic
  
• (17:09) - – Using data for smarter decisions
  
• (20:09) - – Building a culture of testing
  
• (24:09) - – How to report CRO results
  
• (29:09) - – Scrappy tools: Clarity & Hotjar
  
• (34:54) - – What B2B can learn from DTC
  
• (38:54) - – Why messaging matters more than features
  
• (42:54) - – The power of social proof
  
• (48:54) - – Common blockers to CRO success
  
• (50:54) - – A surprising test result (+7% sales)
  
• (52:54) - – Vanity metrics vs. real business outcomes
  
• (56:54) - – Closing thoughts

Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.com
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Intro [0:00:00]: You're listening to B2b marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt.

Matt [0:00:17]: Alright.

Matt [0:00:17]: So on this episode of the Exit Five podcast, I speak to Haley Carpenter.

Matt [0:00:21]: Haley is the founder of Chirpy, a conversion rate optimization agency, and we discuss everything about conversion rate optimization on this episode, we talk about tools you can use, the way to think through it, how to pitch it internally, all that good stuff.

Matt [0:00:37]: And if you're an in house B marketer, improving the amount of conversions you get from your site is always important.

Matt [0:00:42]: It's always something that's top of mind for the team.

Matt [0:00:44]: So this is an episode that.

Matt [0:00:45]: You won't wanna miss if you've been thinking about us?

Matt [0:00:47]: Alright.

Matt [0:00:48]: Cool.

Matt [0:00:49]: I'm here with Haley Carpenter Haley.

Matt [0:00:51]: How's it going?

Haley [0:00:53]: Going well.

Matt [0:00:54]: Good Good.

Matt [0:00:54]: Love to hear it.

Matt [0:00:55]: Yeah.

Matt [0:00:55]: I would love if we just give the audience, you know, the sixty second background.

Matt [0:00:59]: Who are you?

Matt [0:01:00]: And what are you working on right now?

Haley [0:01:02]: I'm Haley as we already said.

Haley [0:01:05]: I own Chirpy.

Haley [0:01:06]: It is a zero services agency.

Haley [0:01:09]: I've had Chirpy now for about two and a half years, but have been in the industry for getting close to a decade almost.

Haley [0:01:18]: So with that said, I have primarily an agency background, and then I also have worked it optimize on their services team.

Haley [0:01:27]: Manage the team there, North America, and then I went out on my own almost Tu, and I'm currently in Austin.

Matt [0:01:35]: Very.

Matt [0:01:35]: Very cool.

Matt [0:01:36]: Nice.

Matt [0:01:36]: Yeah.

Matt [0:01:37]: I know that Chirpy, you know, typically works with D e commerce, does the space you plan.

Matt [0:01:43]: But, you know, we were talking about this earlier.

Matt [0:01:45]: I feel like, D...

Matt [0:01:47]: There's a lot that B to b marketers can learn from the D and e commerce space.

Matt [0:01:51]: So that's why I was excited to bring you on and talk about some of the stuff you're working on and what you're seeing, because I think there's a lot that we can learn.

Matt [0:01:59]: So, yeah, With that being said, you know, I kinda like to just get right into the meat of it and not waste too much time.

Matt [0:02:05]: You know, I've been a B marketer before and been responsible of the revamp of the website.

Matt [0:02:12]: And the toughest thing is, like, where do I even start?

Matt [0:02:16]: There's obviously, like, the whole, like, redesign a rebranding park.

Matt [0:02:19]: But from your perspective, like, you're your Baby marketer and you're looking at a website, like, in terms of conversion rate optimization, what's one of the first things that you're looking at?

Haley [0:02:30]: Oh, good question.

Haley [0:02:30]: I wanna take it back a couple of steps, and then I'll answer that question because for anyone that's listening to this.

Haley [0:02:37]: That hasn't heard of Cro if I say that acronym.

Haley [0:02:40]: It's not chief revenue officer Mh.

Haley [0:02:43]: For clarification.

Haley [0:02:44]: If you think that, I'm not charging you, but I have met people out in the world who have said that's.

Haley [0:02:51]: So Zero is conversion rate optimization.

Haley [0:02:53]: It is what it sounds like.

Haley [0:02:56]: You are optimizing conversion rates on a digital experience, whether that be transactions, forms, Sql, whatever you have going on.

Haley [0:03:05]: But conversion optimization is also so so much more than what it is simplified to be.

Haley [0:03:12]: It's overs simplified and also over complicated often.

Haley [0:03:16]: So I try and land somewhere that's digestible in the middle.

Haley [0:03:19]: But for people who are just getting into Cro, really what people associated, most often with I would say is testing or experimentation or Ab b testing, there are all kinds of words used out there.

Haley [0:03:35]: I would say, ab b testing is probably the most common one.

Haley [0:03:37]: But really, if you are, like, what is Cro?

Haley [0:03:41]: It breaks down into two buckets, and this is that middle point that I try and reach.

Haley [0:03:46]: Where it is testing.

Haley [0:03:48]: That is certainly one bucket.

Haley [0:03:49]: But the other bucket is research.

Haley [0:03:52]: By that, you could mean user research, Ux ui research, again, a number of names for the same thing.

Haley [0:03:58]: Market research, brand research.

Haley [0:04:01]: What if research.

Haley [0:04:02]: We are collecting data over here.

Haley [0:04:03]: And there are all types of ways, and, I call the methodologies that we use to to do the research with all kinds of tools, and then that feeds into the testing.

Haley [0:04:16]: So all of that to say that the research bucket is often very overlooked, not talked about, not known about So it's really important to start there.

Haley [0:04:31]: I would say in my opinion, but I don't think that's just my opinion.

Haley [0:04:36]: I would say any good optimize would agree that you really need to start with...

Haley [0:04:42]: Collecting data getting insights, and then you use those insights to go over to the testing bucket.

Haley [0:04:50]: However, I will avoid trying get two in the weeds here too quickly, because not everyone can test, that doesn't always make sense for every case for everything that you're trying to solve.

Haley [0:05:01]: So the high level point to answer your question is start with data, start with research and the most common methodology.

Haley [0:05:11]: I would say that people know about is analytics, like Ga four.

Haley [0:05:16]: He Job analytics There's all kinds of analytics tools, but I will probably, at some point in this podcast potentially go off on my tangent about research and how it is also so much more than analytics.

Haley [0:05:32]: But I will stop my answer there.

Haley [0:05:34]: Alright.

Matt [0:05:35]: No.

Matt [0:05:35]: That's a good answer.

Matt [0:05:35]: Yeah.

Matt [0:05:36]: No.

Matt [0:05:36]: I'm I'm down to go to go into right away.

Matt [0:05:39]: So you know, the first place to start is research.

Matt [0:05:41]: I think that makes a ton of sense.

Matt [0:05:43]: I do agree that most people think that conversion rate optimization means Ab testing, and, you know, a lot of people talk about, like, oh, it's not just testing whether buttons blue or red, and that's true.

Matt [0:05:55]: But there's also just a level like, it's not necessarily just testing it all.

Matt [0:05:58]: There's there's the other side of it, which is figuring out, you know, what people actually want to hear from you and learning more about your customers before you try and create this website for them.

Matt [0:06:08]: True So let's get into this research and data and insights piece.

Matt [0:06:12]: Let's say I am starting there today, what are some things that you're trying to learn and uncover at this step?

Haley [0:06:19]: Oh, oh this question.

Haley [0:06:20]: So with research then, there are two main spectrum that I use to think about the planning of the research.

Haley [0:06:30]: One of those spectrum is quantitative and qualitative data.

Haley [0:06:35]: We want both types in an ideal situation, and I boiled that down into quantitative data is what most people are familiar with That's numbers, qualitative data is words that I would say is the underappreciated and underutilized type of research, but we want both.

Haley [0:06:54]: The other spectrum is behavioral and perceptive data, perceptive is also known as data.

Haley [0:07:03]: And that is how people are moving and interacting with things versus what they're thinking and what they're feeling.

Haley [0:07:14]: So we need both of those types of data as well.

Haley [0:07:17]: Another way to think about it is what is happening and why it's happening?

Haley [0:07:21]: Oftentimes quan data gives us what is happening, but then the natural follow up question is well why is that happening?

Haley [0:07:29]: Usually, you have to go to qualitative data to get those answers.

Haley [0:07:33]: And so with all of that said, if you're just starting in this place of general discovery or perhaps you have a list of specific questions that you're trying to answer, that dictates really then where we start and what we're trying to answer and find.

Haley [0:07:49]: So for this case, say maybe we're starting in a general place because a lot of teams come to me.

Haley [0:07:54]: They don't necessarily have specific questions.

Haley [0:07:57]: They don't know too much about research they're like, let's optimize stuff and you tell us, which is completely fine.

Haley [0:08:05]: And so then you're look really looking for low hanging fruit to start out.

Haley [0:08:11]: So, like, where are the friction...

Haley [0:08:12]: The big friction points, where are bugs if any where are things that stand out as huge breaking of best practices, not that we always wanna follow best practices, but it is the good starting point.

Haley [0:08:27]: And then from my, like, perceptive side of things, how do users feel about the experience?

Haley [0:08:35]: What are they thinking and how are they perceiving things, and that can look a number of ways If you wanna get really tactical?

Haley [0:08:42]: You look at things like messaging, the value proposition your offers, motions, the journey as a whole.

Haley [0:08:50]: That's another thing.

Haley [0:08:51]: I would say people really kind of don't consider enough is it's not just this one section of a site, in singularity.

Haley [0:09:01]: It's zero is fully encompassing of a journey.

Haley [0:09:05]: And I would say that's...

Haley [0:09:07]: I would argue a mistake.

Haley [0:09:09]: That's a harsh word, but it's, you know, it's dr a mistake.

Haley [0:09:13]: They'll look at something in a journey and singularity without considering the big picture.

Haley [0:09:18]: So...

Haley [0:09:19]: Yeah, A couple of directions there.

Haley [0:09:21]: Answer the question.

Matt [0:09:23]: Yeah.

Matt [0:09:23]: It does.

Matt [0:09:23]: For sure.

Matt [0:09:24]: Yeah.

Matt [0:09:24]: So one that I actually wanted to double click on them my again.

Matt [0:09:28]: I I can't think figure I just use that.

Matt [0:09:29]: The one I wanna double click on a little bit more is we're do...

Matt [0:09:33]: Like, I know we talked about where start, but, like, how about the actual place on the website.

Matt [0:09:38]: Like, is it, like, you don't know where to start.

Matt [0:09:41]: You've been given this task.

Matt [0:09:41]: You know the goal is to obviously get more people to do the thing you want them to do on their site.

Matt [0:09:46]: So from there, is it, like, let's let's focus on just a homepage for now or let's focus on the product pages, or does it always have to be the whole site?

Matt [0:09:56]: Like, how do you how do you break down the thinking there?

Haley [0:09:59]: This is exactly why I do custom scope for all my clients that come in is because Yes.

Haley [0:10:05]: In the biggest case of doing Ser, particularly with a website.

Haley [0:10:10]: I wanna throw in here that zero is not just for websites.

Haley [0:10:14]: It's also for mobile apps.

Haley [0:10:15]: It's for Saas products.

Haley [0:10:16]: It's for any digital experience really, and then the testing, anywhere you on a code base in theory you could test.

Haley [0:10:23]: So we'll talk about any in context, most likely this whole time relative to websites, but just for the audience know that this is broadly applicable But as far as where to start, like I was saying in the biggest case, it's the whole funnel, and you can even should start with landing pages and ads in the Pb side of it all the way to the post experience of whatever your conversion is.

Haley [0:10:45]: But it really is then, like, if you're not doing the whole journey, is there some immediate need or immediate major issue that we need to address?

Haley [0:10:54]: Like, has all of the traffic stop converting from the Pdp.

Haley [0:10:58]: Okay.

Haley [0:10:58]: Maybe let's look there or maybe your services pages or something.

Haley [0:11:01]: You know, is something broken in the cart.

Haley [0:11:04]: Okay.

Haley [0:11:04]: We should probably start there.

Haley [0:11:06]: From a testing perspective, this question is quite objective.

Haley [0:11:12]: Look in that if we go back to that testing comment where I was like, not everyone can do testing.

Haley [0:11:18]: When you start there, you have pre test calculations.

Haley [0:11:21]: So the starting points are actually based on your real data.

Matt [0:11:25]: Mh.

Haley [0:11:26]: And testing isn't a matter of whether or not you want to do it.

Haley [0:11:30]: Of course, you have to wanna do it to get into it.

Haley [0:11:33]: But it's not like, oh, we wanna test.

Haley [0:11:34]: So we're gonna do that now.

Haley [0:11:35]: It's...

Haley [0:11:36]: Okay.

Haley [0:11:37]: We're gonna run the numbers, and the numbers will tell us if you can test it all, if the answer is yes, then those numbers are gonna tell us where we can test, how we can test how long we can test what we can test.

Haley [0:11:50]: When we can...

Haley [0:11:51]: Like, it's gonna give us all of the answers Right.

Haley [0:11:54]: That we want, and then we piece that together into a road map and priorities from there.

Haley [0:11:59]: So then in that case, maybe it is just the homepage.

Matt [0:12:03]: Right.

Haley [0:12:03]: Simple enough.

Haley [0:12:04]: Yep for companies that have more traffic, It's probably the entire funnel.

Haley [0:12:08]: Companies fall in between there.

Haley [0:12:10]: So maybe we do a homepage, services page depends context.

Haley [0:12:14]: For me for e com, you know, homepage category pages, Pdp.

Haley [0:12:18]: Maybe, we stop there.

Haley [0:12:19]: It just depends on the traffic.

Matt [0:12:21]: Okay.

Haley [0:12:21]: But research is much broader and more accessible.

Matt [0:12:25]: Yeah.

Matt [0:12:25]: Okay.

Matt [0:12:25]: Cool.

Matt [0:12:25]: So so that brings us to a great next question.

Matt [0:12:28]: If you have limited traffic, how would you think about testing, I know there's no, like, one number for anyone every company industry or different, so there's no, like, at least I don't think there's one one number minimum.

Matt [0:12:43]: But how do you think about testing limited traffic?

Matt [0:12:45]: Is it...

Matt [0:12:46]: Let's get more traffic first.

Matt [0:12:48]: Is there always some kind of testing you should do?

Matt [0:12:51]: Can it be a waste of time?

Matt [0:12:52]: Like what are your thoughts there?

Haley [0:12:54]: Any thoughts.

Haley [0:12:54]: Yeah.

Haley [0:12:56]: For this...

Haley [0:12:57]: For my clients to come in for people that I look to work with.

Haley [0:13:01]: Typically, my benchmark is a average monthly users of two hundred thousand or more.

Haley [0:13:09]: Yeah.

Haley [0:13:10]: Not to say that if you're right below that that we can't test.

Haley [0:13:14]: Again, it's down to the calculation, so it's proportion of conversions to, the traffic we input those into the calculator, but that's about my threshold.

Haley [0:13:23]: For those that are lower traffic, let's say you run those calculations and the answer no.

Haley [0:13:28]: You can't test in the traditional sense, I label that Ab b testing in that sense.

Haley [0:13:34]: So you're talking about it with an optimized video.

Haley [0:13:36]: Controlled my hypothesis is testing.

Haley [0:13:38]: But you can't still test if you're low traffic.

Haley [0:13:43]: It just looks different, and it's not going to...

Haley [0:13:47]: The data is not going to be used and analyze the same.

Haley [0:13:50]: It's not gonna be considered the same.

Haley [0:13:52]: But it is there, and it gives us data.

Haley [0:13:56]: I hate to frame it as a less than option and take away value from what it offers.

Haley [0:14:03]: But technically, it is, like a second choice Mh.

Haley [0:14:07]: To controlled hypothesis testing.

Haley [0:14:09]: But this other type of testing filler traffic clients, I would call user testing.

Haley [0:14:15]: So let's say we can't put an a and a b into a regular controlled hypothesis test.

Haley [0:14:21]: We can do something like a preference test and still technically gets statistical significance with that.

Haley [0:14:27]: So we could put our a and b into a different platform under different circumstances, and we still have data then to guide us in a decision.

Haley [0:14:35]: Which is better than the alternative of nothing.

Haley [0:14:41]: If you're not testing at all in user testing then as that interim...

Haley [0:14:46]: Or not interim, but, like, low traffic solution than what do you have?

Haley [0:14:50]: Usually nothing.

Haley [0:14:53]: So then you...

Haley [0:14:53]: You're back to guessing and having no data to guide you.

Haley [0:14:58]: And so as long as the data is clean it's accurate.

Haley [0:15:01]: You can trust it, some data is better than no data.

Haley [0:15:05]: So in my opinion, it is still worth doing some form views testing for those lower traffic clients with that road mapping type of decision making mindset that you would have in controlled hypothesis testing.

Haley [0:15:21]: But everyone can do research.

Haley [0:15:23]: Everyone can do research in that bucket.

Haley [0:15:25]: And then there are some tools out there that will say you can test with very very low traffic.

Haley [0:15:36]: I feel like this is so just, like, direct harsh.

Haley [0:15:39]: But, like, that's a lie.

Haley [0:15:40]: Like, you can't just test with whatever traffic you want.

Haley [0:15:44]: Like, that's not how it works.

Haley [0:15:46]: Yeah.

Haley [0:15:46]: So watch out for that.

Haley [0:15:48]: Also, you know, if people say, like, oh, you can't do anything with low traffic from, like, a data gathering perspective and a decision making for perspective.

Haley [0:15:57]: That's also not true.

Haley [0:15:58]: Yeah.

Haley [0:15:59]: I feel like there was another key point.

Haley [0:16:01]: I forgot it, but that's most of my answer.

Matt [0:16:04]: Yeah.

Matt [0:16:04]: Yeah.

Matt [0:16:05]: No.

Matt [0:16:05]: And and I agree.

Matt [0:16:06]: I think a lot of people there's spectrum of people that listen to our podcast, some effective probably have traffic, you know, at or even much north of two hundred thousand a month, and then some are significantly less, like, even five thousand a month.

Matt [0:16:22]: But maybe the five thousand a month that come in are actually, like, you know, super high value enterprise, b to b type So even in that case, like, how should they be thinking about this?

Matt [0:16:32]: Again, is it just, like, you're too low or even at that level, is there still something that you should and can be doing?

Matt [0:16:39]: How would you think about it?

Haley [0:16:41]: Even at that level in my opinion, there's still things you should be doing.

Haley [0:16:44]: Because again, like, these resources are out there.

Haley [0:16:47]: These these tools are out there to do this type of of testing.

Matt [0:16:51]: Mh.

Haley [0:16:52]: And you can do it for micro decisions every day.

Haley [0:16:54]: You can do it for Map decisions.

Haley [0:16:55]: Even if you're not using a standard user testing platform, we're aiming for some number of responses and significance, you can still do other research to inform your choices, even if it's qualitative, even if you're just talking to a couple of people, if that's all you can do.

Haley [0:17:12]: Better than no data.

Haley [0:17:13]: Like I said, make sure it's accurate, reliable.

Haley [0:17:16]: Like, if you're selling something to a very specific Ic, try and and find testers and users and people to talk to within that or real customers to I'm not saying, we'll just go then ask Sam off the street what he thinks.

Haley [0:17:29]: And soon as he off the street and asked two hundred people.

Haley [0:17:32]: Like, that's not what I'm saying.

Haley [0:17:33]: That's not the accurate reliable data we're trying to use.

Haley [0:17:35]: But otherwise, Yes.

Haley [0:17:38]: There always absolutely still things that you can be doing with data to gather data to use data to inform what you're doing with there a way that people talk about Hero that I love is that it's really, like, an operating philosophy fee or a decision making philosophy, not just relative to a website or an app, but really as a business.

Haley [0:17:58]: It's like we are going to use data as an entire business entity to make our choices and work smarter.

Haley [0:18:06]: And there are so many companies out there that do not operate that way.

Haley [0:18:10]: Even though I would...

Haley [0:18:11]: I think sometimes people are under the assumption that every business does.

Matt [0:18:15]: Yeah.

Haley [0:18:16]: Given the state of of what things are today, but that's not true.

Haley [0:18:18]: So we're very much.

Haley [0:18:20]: I still have this rant all the time.

Matt [0:18:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:18:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:18:23]: No.

Matt [0:18:23]: Totally.

Matt [0:18:24]: Yeah.

Matt [0:18:24]: I think I think that's the toughest part with testing.

Matt [0:18:26]: Right?

Matt [0:18:27]: It's, like, how do you build the culture of it?

Matt [0:18:29]: It's very easy in the singularity of the website redesign to say that, oh, maybe we're going to run some tests here or if we are changing our landing page or creating a landing page Is very easy to sail.

Matt [0:18:42]: In this one project, we're gonna test two variations of this thing.

Matt [0:18:46]: But it's, like, how do you how do you continually do it?

Matt [0:18:49]: And how do you make it part of, like, the team operating process or even the process of you reporting to your manager?

Matt [0:18:54]: Like, how how do you show them that I'm constantly running tests and you know, through each test we're learning and iterating and getting better?

Matt [0:19:02]: So, yeah, I guess, I I wanna turn it back to you, like, how how do you see teams create this process or create this culture of, you know, constant testing and experimentation.

Matt [0:19:11]: Like, what does that actually look like on the on the inside and what can marketers is listening to this, takeaway from that?

Haley [0:19:18]: Such a broad topic of Yeah.

Haley [0:19:20]: Conversation.

Haley [0:19:21]: I will give my sing answer that's hopefully the most broadly applicable.

Haley [0:19:27]: But Cro is a system.

Haley [0:19:30]: So I'll start there.

Haley [0:19:31]: And I have a diagram of that system.

Haley [0:19:35]: Like it is visualize and it's tangible.

Haley [0:19:39]: You can see the pieces you can know the pieces.

Haley [0:19:42]: And that system should be implemented for whatever team we're talking about.

Haley [0:19:50]: Granted it's not always gonna look the exact same, but foundational usually, like, the big pieces are the same.

Haley [0:19:58]: And so with that said, let's assume a company has no Cro going right now.

Haley [0:20:03]: No one's doing it.

Haley [0:20:04]: I or someone is bringing it into a company.

Haley [0:20:07]: Usually, I would say it starts in one team usually, I would say that's marketing.

Matt [0:20:17]: Yeah.

Haley [0:20:18]: And then once you get it rolling with marketing, then you evan your work, it's going to be successful because what I tell people is zero always works when it's done correctly in some amount of time.

Haley [0:20:34]: If someone is out there listening to this, you know, like, even Zero is bullshit or like, you know, we've done.

Haley [0:20:40]: It doesn't work whatever.

Haley [0:20:41]: It's not the system that failed you.

Haley [0:20:43]: It's the humans running it that failed you.

Haley [0:20:45]: So, you know, you implement that system.

Haley [0:20:48]: It's going to work.

Haley [0:20:49]: You evan analyzed those results.

Haley [0:20:51]: You get other people involved in a variety of ways.

Haley [0:20:53]: You share out your work in a variety of ways.

Haley [0:20:55]: And usually, that captures some interest, you can get people's attention that way.

Haley [0:21:01]: And then you slowly work it out from there.

Haley [0:21:04]: Usually, it migrate over to a product team.

Haley [0:21:06]: If one exists and going back to what I said about Cro is more than just conversion rate optimization.

Haley [0:21:14]: It's a business wide effort really or or should be, it's an operating principle.

Haley [0:21:19]: So with that and and the research oftentimes, you know, it's starting and marketing, but you're finding insights that relate to sales to customer service to your actual products, whether you're eco com, and that's a tangible product that we're having, that we're selling or whether that's Saas products with a product team over here.

Haley [0:21:40]: You find things that go everywhere that apply everywhere.

Haley [0:21:45]: Just further proof it's zero is really a business wide thing, but you can certainly...

Haley [0:21:50]: I'm not gonna lie.

Haley [0:21:51]: You can certainly have a situation where there's nothing you can do.

Haley [0:21:56]: Like, I can be the best consultant, the best Cro practitioner on the entire planet, and sometimes, there's still nothing I can do to get a team to adopt Cro or a broader company to adopt zero even if I have one team inside of it.

Haley [0:22:12]: But there...

Haley [0:22:14]: There's a whole spectrum there.

Haley [0:22:16]: Yeah.

Haley [0:22:16]: Sometimes, you know, it it just depends.

Haley [0:22:18]: But also, you know, sometimes they're silos in the company, and you ultimately work break those down a little bit and that allows you to expand Cro.

Haley [0:22:26]: Sometimes you can't.

Haley [0:22:28]: Sometimes teams already, don't have silos and they're pretty good about the cross functional work.

Haley [0:22:32]: It really just depends.

Haley [0:22:33]: But...

Haley [0:22:33]: No.

Haley [0:22:33]: Yeah.

Haley [0:22:34]: The...

Haley [0:22:34]: If you start with the system, usually getting in place with the team.

Haley [0:22:37]: Growing it from there.

Matt [0:22:39]: Yeah.

Matt [0:22:39]: Okay.

Matt [0:22:40]: Cool.

Matt [0:22:40]: Love that.

Matt [0:22:40]: Yeah.

Matt [0:22:41]: Yeah.

Matt [0:22:41]: I find one of the best ways just like, overall in marketing, isn't rocket science, but let's get buying through anything is just the proper reporting of what is going on up to your higher ups.

Matt [0:22:52]: Right?

Matt [0:22:53]: It's, like, if you can tell the story of how this is making some kind of impact on the business, then obviously, people are a lot more likely to get bought into it, especially if those results are a positive one.

Matt [0:23:03]: So In this case, how she teams to be doing it?

Matt [0:23:06]: Like, what's...

Matt [0:23:06]: Is it, like, they're sending weekly updates to just their boss to the whole company?

Matt [0:23:10]: Like, what have you seen as some good reporting and evan tactics to get by in across this, you know, culture of testing in the marketing team?

Haley [0:23:20]: Yes.

Haley [0:23:20]: There is a diagram that I've seen and used.

Haley [0:23:25]: I can't remember where I first saw it.

Haley [0:23:27]: But this really falls under a piece of the system.

Haley [0:23:31]: The I group as program management you're gonna see my German shepherd fine.

Haley [0:23:36]: Program management and governance.

Haley [0:23:39]: And so if you think about program management and governance as the center of a wheel, I have a puppy, and she's four and a half months old and she just tan the older one.

Haley [0:23:52]: I have.

Haley [0:23:53]: You think about the center of those, of a wheel, program management governance.

Haley [0:23:57]: And then you think of the spokes out from that.

Haley [0:23:59]: All of the spokes are the different tactics that we're using to try and do the evan.

Haley [0:24:05]: To get the buy in to build a culture.

Haley [0:24:07]: So that things like having a Slack channel or a Teams channel You can use that in a variety of ways, but maybe you're dropping test results, piping up upcoming tests, sharing out your reports.

Haley [0:24:20]: Usually, there's weekly, monthly and quarterly reporting happening for Cro, for lower velocity programs if you're testing, usually, it's on a less frequent cadence, it just depends.

Haley [0:24:35]: But within that, then in those those timing, the timing I just mentioned.

Haley [0:24:41]: Then there are different types of reports so there's individual test reports, so are very tactical and specific.

Haley [0:24:47]: But then there are maybe, like, newsletters that go out in email and Slack, maybe directly.

Haley [0:24:55]: It's like a couple of people.

Haley [0:24:57]: And then there's usually a quarterly business review that is more strategic.

Haley [0:25:04]: And also from, like, that program perspective, Program management is different from project management in a number of ways.

Haley [0:25:12]: There are program level metrics that we want to be reporting on, so that would be in something like a monthly meeting in a quarterly meeting, or it's not just like, this one test got this lift and here's this dataset set in this learning.

Haley [0:25:29]: It's more like, okay.

Haley [0:25:32]: Within this quarter, here's how many wins we had.

Haley [0:25:35]: Here's how many losses here's what we did with this set of learnings.

Haley [0:25:39]: Here's where we passed this research and sales did this with it higher level things.

Haley [0:25:44]: I...

Haley [0:25:45]: That's one thing particularly relative to evan visualization and getting buy in that's often missed or not known about or not done, is that program level reporting.

Haley [0:25:56]: It's more of just, like the individual test reporting.

Haley [0:26:00]: And then also in...

Haley [0:26:03]: Within that reporting, like, research and sharing that out, is also extremely important.

Haley [0:26:08]: And I think research, it bum me still to this day.

Haley [0:26:13]: A lot of times it's done, and then it's just a slide deck that goes to die.

Haley [0:26:17]: It's insights that go to die, Where's is the value in that?

Haley [0:26:21]: You might as well just not have done it.

Haley [0:26:23]: That's another piece where you need to...

Haley [0:26:26]: What it...

Haley [0:26:27]: Put the findings, the newsletters link to them, call things out, make it exciting, to tell the story, link it to your tests, show the picture present that stuff, People hate presenting, but, like, get in front of people with it, explain it.

Haley [0:26:40]: Get them excited it, and that doesn't mean just sitting and reading the whole damn thing, like slide for slide.

Haley [0:26:45]: Like, no one wants that.

Haley [0:26:45]: Right There's not gonna be people interested.

Haley [0:26:47]: So you you really need to, like, have that all encompassing picture.

Haley [0:26:50]: And then another piece of it too is, like, the project management that ties into the program management, but I would say it's sub thing.

Haley [0:26:58]: It's like, how are you keeping track of all of this?

Haley [0:27:02]: Like, where are the research deliverables living?

Haley [0:27:05]: Do you have an insights repository or knowledge base of everything?

Haley [0:27:09]: Where are your tests living?

Haley [0:27:11]: How are you strat where is the strategy in a road map in the prioritization living?

Haley [0:27:16]: Do you have dashboards.

Haley [0:27:17]: Do you...

Haley [0:27:18]: There's all kinds of ways that we can report now.

Haley [0:27:22]: Right?

Haley [0:27:22]: And, like, there's no excuse not to?

Haley [0:27:24]: There just more tools than ever before.

Haley [0:27:28]: There's more resources than ever before.

Haley [0:27:29]: So it it is a giant puzzle.

Haley [0:27:32]: I will say, but Gotta put this together.

Haley [0:27:35]: Right?

Haley [0:27:35]: So...

Haley [0:27:35]: Like, if you're not gonna do it.

Haley [0:27:37]: Have someone do it.

Haley [0:27:38]: Hire someone?

Matt [0:27:39]: Yeah.

Matt [0:27:39]: Yeah.

Matt [0:27:39]: Totally.

Matt [0:27:39]: Totally.

Matt [0:27:40]: Yeah.

Matt [0:27:40]: So I know there's no, like, step one, but, you know, I'm a I'm a scrappy B to marketer, and I wanna take a swing at this.

Matt [0:27:46]: I know that's probably not third way to phrase it, but it's like, you, I wanna start getting, you know, better with looking at data more frequently.

Matt [0:27:53]: I wanna start making decisions with it.

Matt [0:27:55]: You know, whether it's...

Matt [0:27:56]: I know with, like, email tools and maybe different, website tools might be different, but, like, are there some, like, scrappy wins or scrappy things you can do to just start, like, building this muscle of of, up testing?

Matt [0:28:09]: Yeah.

Matt [0:28:09]: Tell me.

Haley [0:28:10]: Yes.

Haley [0:28:10]: There is a free tool called Microsoft Clarity

Matt [0:28:16]: K.

Haley [0:28:17]: It is...

Haley [0:28:17]: I would say on the newer side.

Haley [0:28:19]: I don't wanna say new new because it's been out for a minute now.

Haley [0:28:22]: But it's on the newer side of tools, and it is just a snippet that you can go place on the back end of your side, super easy peasy.

Haley [0:28:29]: They'll give you the directions You can look it up.

Haley [0:28:31]: But it takes like five seconds.

Haley [0:28:33]: And then what happens is that we'll we'll start collecting data.

Haley [0:28:37]: And what it has in there, the I life to direct people to first, would be heat maps and session recordings.

Haley [0:28:45]: So that's going to give you behavioral data that shows you where people are clicking, where they're not clicking, where they're scrolling, and then the session recordings, are...

Haley [0:28:59]: I don't wanna say, like, people think they're creepy.

Haley [0:29:01]: I don't think it's creepy, like, I think it's within bounds, lots of tools out there to do it, but you have that snippet and then sessions on your website are being recorded.

Haley [0:29:13]: So then you can go in and see real users organically interacting with your website, and they don't know that you're watching, which is a plus because if they know that you're watching, it influences their behavior, oh, can.

Haley [0:29:29]: So it's a great place to just do, like, what what are people doing?

Haley [0:29:33]: Like, when they I get here, what does that maybe look like?

Haley [0:29:37]: You know?

Haley [0:29:37]: I'm just go watch ten people hang out on your website and and go poke around.

Haley [0:29:42]: Like, are they?

Haley [0:29:43]: Doing what you expected?

Haley [0:29:44]: Or are you're like, oh, no.

Haley [0:29:45]: Like, that's that's not what I thought was happening.

Matt [0:29:49]: Yeah.

Haley [0:29:50]: Like, maybe you just launched a new page or a new flow and you thought people would go one way and you find out oh, shoot.

Haley [0:29:56]: That's not going out thought at all.

Haley [0:29:59]: No.

Haley [0:30:00]: That's a great.

Haley [0:30:00]: You know, great starting point.

Haley [0:30:01]: With heat maps, like, maybe you and your team have been working on a section on the homepage that is maybe halfway down even, and you run us a heat map, and people are not even reaching that part of the page.

Haley [0:30:14]: What a giant waste of your time.

Haley [0:30:16]: So it's just like there are some immediate put things that you can learn entirely for free.

Haley [0:30:21]: Yeah.

Haley [0:30:22]: I will say Clarity is not my favorite tool So if you're willing to put in a small amount of money for a small fee, I would start with Hot because they have a very nice entry level plan, even a couple upgraded plans that are super reasonable, even feel like a startup.

Haley [0:30:40]: And I...

Haley [0:30:41]: On...

Haley [0:30:41]: I would honestly just run straight to Hot.

Matt [0:30:43]: Nice.

Matt [0:30:43]: Okay.

Matt [0:30:44]: Cool.

Matt [0:30:44]: Yeah.

Matt [0:30:44]: I that...

Matt [0:30:45]: I was gonna ask about Hot.

Matt [0:30:46]: Yeah.

Matt [0:30:46]: Recently, I used it on a page that I had just built, and, yeah.

Matt [0:30:51]: I I watched some some recorded sessions and looked at the heat map and Yeah.

Matt [0:30:56]: It's exactly what you said.

Matt [0:30:57]: Like, I just...

Matt [0:30:57]: There were certain things that I had no clue would be confusing to people.

Matt [0:31:01]: There were some things that I was just, like, I have no clue why anyone would ever click on that so many times, but it popping over and over And, I need to do something about it.

Matt [0:31:10]: So I definitely agree that that's, like, a really a quick and easy scrappy thing.

Matt [0:31:15]: It's also just, like, satisfying.

Matt [0:31:16]: It's all it's also just, like, we process kind of addict because it's, like, you get to see colors and you get to have actually see people in action.

Matt [0:31:23]: It's a really really cool way to start.

Matt [0:31:25]: No doubt about it.

Haley [0:31:26]: Yes.

Haley [0:31:26]: I like that they called that out because he masks for people Have never seen them before.

Haley [0:31:31]: They're very, very colorful, and they're very visual very tangible seeming.

Haley [0:31:37]: And so as opposed to a table of numbers, which many people don't get excited about at first glance.

Haley [0:31:45]: Heat maps are also a good starting point because they kinda...

Haley [0:31:50]: They kinda draw people in.

Haley [0:31:51]: They're like, oh, what's that?

Haley [0:31:52]: Oh, that's interesting.

Haley [0:31:53]: That's kind of fun.

Haley [0:31:54]: Looking.

Haley [0:31:55]: And then you start to explain it and they're like, oh, oh, that's cool.

Haley [0:31:58]: And so I do like that.

Haley [0:32:01]: That spot.

Haley [0:32:02]: That's a starting point for that reason as well.

Matt [0:32:04]: Yeah.

Matt [0:32:04]: Yep.

Matt [0:32:05]: Exactly.

Matt [0:32:05]: Exactly.

Matt [0:32:06]: Okay.

Matt [0:32:07]: Love it.

Matt [0:32:07]: Love it.

Matt [0:32:07]: Alright.

Matt [0:32:08]: So I wanna talk a bit about what you're seeing in in direct to consumer brands that you work with, And maybe what you think is missing in b2b to b.

Matt [0:32:17]: So from a testing standpoint and how they're thinking about what to test in their marketing, what do you think B to b is missing, what you think B to b can start doing that these brands are doing and you're seeing on your end?

Haley [0:32:33]: I think one of the these things is clarity and the value proposition with messaging and information and flows in general.

Haley [0:32:44]: So on the eco com side, that's typically much more straightforward or at least easier for brands to do because, you know, if you're selling a product, like, let's say I'm selling a shoe, the value proposition is usually pretty straightforward to come up with.

Haley [0:33:05]: It's, you know, something is about your shoes.

Haley [0:33:07]: You have shoes.

Haley [0:33:09]: Everyone knows what shoes are.

Haley [0:33:10]: Yeah.

Haley [0:33:11]: The funnel is, okay.

Haley [0:33:12]: I mean maybe go to the homepage.

Haley [0:33:14]: I go to the category page of women's shoes for me.

Haley [0:33:17]: I pick a shoes that I like.

Haley [0:33:19]: I go to the particular product page for the shoe.

Haley [0:33:21]: I added it to my cart.

Haley [0:33:23]: I go to the cart, I check out.

Haley [0:33:24]: Boom, you know, and that's pretty consistent for e com.

Haley [0:33:28]: Yeah.

Haley [0:33:29]: And for, like, the b side, not saying that it's, you know, the messaging and clarity is difficult in every case, but usually, companies trouble much more with that.

Haley [0:33:40]: Yeah.

Haley [0:33:40]: Especially if you're offering something complicated or something with a lot of jargon words or, you know, like, if you have thirty services pages that are five layers deep somehow and like, you know, there's four calls to action, and you have a demo and you have a contact us, and you have this out in the other, like, it can get a little bit unruly.

Haley [0:34:06]: So piecing all of that together in a way that's extremely clear.

Haley [0:34:10]: Effective, concise.

Haley [0:34:12]: There are times that we wanna break best practices intentionally.

Haley [0:34:17]: In b2b, I would say more often.

Haley [0:34:20]: Mh.

Haley [0:34:21]: And then the flows like I was saying and making that clear to users.

Haley [0:34:24]: That's a good starting in place.

Haley [0:34:26]: And I feel that have, just because I've worked, you know, I've one of his companies before.

Haley [0:34:33]: He hammers on this a lot.

Haley [0:34:35]: I don't wanna speak for him, but, like, with messaging and clarity and value propositions, and I'm not like, biased or anything because I worked with him and and think a lot of pet.

Haley [0:34:44]: But, like, genuinely, that is a really good place to start, and a lot of teams do struggle with it.

Haley [0:34:49]: And there's a tool like, winter, for example, w y n t e r, that are specifically for b2b to b messaging.

Matt [0:34:57]: Yep.

Haley [0:34:58]: It is on the more expensive side.

Haley [0:35:00]: So there are other tools as well that are great for message testing or value prop testing or home homepage testing or navigation testing, even, like, you know, card sorting, tree testing, things like that that you can use and immediately get some things to probably change or test in a control hypothesis test if you're gonna do that.

Matt [0:35:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:35:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:35:22]: Yeah.

Matt [0:35:23]: Think nailed it.

Matt [0:35:24]: Like it, I've been on B marketing teams before, and there's only so much testing you can do, but if your messaging sucks if you're not well positioned against the competitors in the market.

Matt [0:35:36]: There's is nothing that's really going to fix that.

Matt [0:35:39]: Like, the the problem is is way the foundation, and that needs to get fixed first.

Matt [0:35:44]: So, yeah.

Matt [0:35:46]: That's just way more important.

Matt [0:35:47]: And and with that, you know, I guess that goes back to, like, part of, you know, you you put conversion rate optimization into two buckets, which was a testing part in the research part, and this is where the research just really is one of the most important components because if you're not, you know, doing some talking to customers or even doing some research internally.

Matt [0:36:05]: Like, even can just talking to senior leader leadership and understanding how they wanna talk about what the company does and how they see the company being different now in the future than the competitors and is really so much you could out test that.

Matt [0:36:18]: Right?

Haley [0:36:19]: Yeah.

Haley [0:36:19]: And I you know, teams don't wanna hear it, but usually, they're not talking about products and things and services how their customers are talking about it, or the pinpoint that the team think exists or really anything that the team is thinking, Like, usually, at some juncture at a number of points.

Haley [0:36:37]: Like, you're not gonna be aligning with your actual customers.

Haley [0:36:40]: Yeah.

Haley [0:36:41]: And you won't know that without the research.

Haley [0:36:43]: And, like you were saying, these foundational things, like, think of it as a pyramid measurement is one of them in metrics and and proper strategy around that.

Haley [0:36:53]: Is part of that foundation with messaging.

Haley [0:36:55]: But at the foundation, if that's correct, and then you're trying to build on top of it it's six months a year later, and that whole thing Crumble at the bottom.

Haley [0:37:02]: It's a bad day.

Haley [0:37:04]: Your whole pyramid is gonna fall on top of you.

Haley [0:37:06]: It's not a good time, and I see it all the time, and dude there's one of other things, oh, right.

Haley [0:37:12]: And something else that I'm gonna note that I also like that Pep talks about.

Haley [0:37:17]: I've been Disney because he's the one Do I just talk about, I think the most.

Haley [0:37:21]: But, like, features, you can't really compete on features for very long if at all.

Haley [0:37:27]: And if you don't have features it'd the benefits whatever.

Haley [0:37:30]: Like, usually, they end up getting pretty similar across whoever your competitors are.

Haley [0:37:35]: So then he's like, well then, what do you have?

Haley [0:37:37]: Then what are you competing on?

Haley [0:37:39]: It's brand, story, value proposition, messaging, and all of that instead.

Haley [0:37:46]: So it's so important to focus on.

Haley [0:37:50]: Yeah.

Haley [0:37:50]: And and and the journey and just just everything that we've been talking about.

Matt [0:37:55]: Yeah.

Matt [0:37:55]: Totally Nine.

Matt [0:37:56]: There's a lot to it and a lot to unpack and and a lot of things to get right.

Matt [0:38:00]: You know, it's funny.

Matt [0:38:01]: We at drive last year.

Matt [0:38:03]: We had a talk from Kyle Coleman who, at the time, he was just Cmo of copy dot ai.

Matt [0:38:09]: Now, I think he's at click up, and he talked about when he first joined copied dot ai, and and in the, you know, the process of starting the job, he had screenshot at his website messaging and all of his three biggest competitors or four based competitors, whatever was.

Matt [0:38:28]: And they literally all sound the exact same.

Haley [0:38:31]: Yeah.

Matt [0:38:32]: And they all...

Matt [0:38:32]: Well, the same, you know, kind of feature set or the same at, you know, thing that they help people do.

Matt [0:38:37]: So it's pretty crazy from that perspective, like, when you're talking about the way we think, people wanna hear about how we talk about we do versus what our customers think is typically totally different, and a lot of times marketers, you know, I'm I'm guilty of it to.

Matt [0:38:51]: Like, I'm so wrapped up in the bubble of our company that I think that everybody sees it the same way or a similar way.

Matt [0:38:58]: And that just because I say it that people are gonna pick up on it.

Matt [0:39:01]: But, you know, it's really like, putting yourself back in your customer's shoes is just so hard.

Haley [0:39:06]: Yeah.

Haley [0:39:06]: And then applies to me too.

Haley [0:39:08]: Yeah.

Haley [0:39:08]: It'll applies to me, like, I'm not excluded.

Haley [0:39:10]: I can't work on my own stuff.

Haley [0:39:12]: I hire people to help me because I'm just...

Haley [0:39:14]: We're all too close to our own things, and that's not our fault.

Haley [0:39:17]: That's just the nature of the work.

Matt [0:39:19]: Yeah.

Matt [0:39:19]: Yeah.

Matt [0:39:20]: Exactly.

Matt [0:39:20]: Awesome.

Matt [0:39:22]: Okay.

Matt [0:39:22]: So we talked about storytelling and messaging position the prop.

Matt [0:39:25]: I wanna talk about social proof.

Matt [0:39:27]: I'm not saying social proof is like this silver bullet of everything marketing related, But in my opinion, it's kinda close.

Matt [0:39:34]: Like, I feel like if you have good social proof, And if you can tell...

Matt [0:39:39]: If you could wind that into the story properly, it's much harder to lose or to get bad results.

Matt [0:39:45]: So, yeah, how do you see...

Matt [0:39:47]: Let's say you're looking at ads, you know, you're you're working on someone's ads and helping them with testing or whether their website or emails.

Matt [0:39:55]: Or what whatever you're working on, what role is social proof playing.

Matt [0:39:58]: Like, if you don't see the proper social proof, or don't see any at all, or are you, like, yelling and shaking your client, go get so immediately.

Haley [0:40:06]: Yeah.

Haley [0:40:06]: Yeah.

Haley [0:40:06]: Immediately.

Haley [0:40:06]: Yeah.

Haley [0:40:07]: Immediately.

Haley [0:40:08]: I mean, I don't say always often, but I might venture to say always here in that every time social proof doesn't exist somewhere.

Haley [0:40:21]: Or it's very minimal, and we do some research.

Haley [0:40:25]: It's called out.

Haley [0:40:26]: People notice it immediately dings your credibility and kind of the investment that people are willing to give you I feel like it's just so easy to have nowadays.

Haley [0:40:38]: There's no reason not to.

Haley [0:40:40]: There's all kinds of platforms.

Haley [0:40:42]: Like we've been saying, just go talk to customers, do a survey, offer an incentive, like, hey.

Haley [0:40:49]: Ten minutes of your time, I'll give you a starbucks gift card for a cup of coffee or, you know, hey, if you deem give us ten minutes of your time, we'll enter you into, you know, raffle or whatever for, like, a hundred dollar Amazon gift card or something like that.

Haley [0:41:05]: And then you can...

Haley [0:41:06]: You know, I get reviews that way or like, there's there's just so many ways.

Haley [0:41:10]: Like, there's no reason not to have it.

Haley [0:41:12]: And I do wanna say too though, especially on the e com side, which I know isn't, like, as much of a focus here.

Haley [0:41:18]: But, I mean, I'd maybe applies for a b2b to audience to some extent.

Haley [0:41:22]: Like, also, do be strategic about it though because in, like an e com example, a common strategy or a tactic is to have, like the star reviews for a product.

Haley [0:41:33]: Right?

Haley [0:41:33]: Usually, there's, like, the star visual at the top of the page.

Haley [0:41:37]: You're like, okay, we have twenty reviews, five stars, and then somewhere put it down on toward the bottom of the page.

Haley [0:41:42]: But if there are two few reviews, and there's actually not enough social proof.

Haley [0:41:48]: People call that out every time as well.

Haley [0:41:51]: Yeah.

Haley [0:41:51]: And that also dings your credibility.

Haley [0:41:53]: So there is, like, a balance of strategy here of, like, okay.

Haley [0:41:57]: What do you have?

Haley [0:41:58]: How much of it do you have?

Haley [0:42:00]: How quickly are you able to get it and are you getting it?

Haley [0:42:04]: And how are you continuing to do that?

Haley [0:42:07]: So it's not just always as simple it's like, Hey, go fling some stuff up there?

Haley [0:42:13]: But it...

Haley [0:42:14]: You know, it is extremely important talking about that foundation and the messaging and everything.

Haley [0:42:19]: Social proof is with that.

Haley [0:42:21]: Oh, I remembered the point that I wanted to say earlier too, which is like, usually brands like, especially D to b are still at that foundation level.

Haley [0:42:33]: So everyone loves to jump to what are more advanced things, like, personalization, recommendations, things like that.

Haley [0:42:42]: If your messaging isn't clear, if your journey is not clear, if your value is not clear, if you don't have social proof and people don't trust you, don't worry about personalization quite yet.

Haley [0:42:57]: Yeah.

Haley [0:42:58]: It's not the most important thing because, you know, if you think about that pyramid personalization is gonna be up here, your base is cracked.

Haley [0:43:06]: Doesn't matter.

Haley [0:43:07]: Like, everything is crumbling beneath you.

Haley [0:43:09]: So that's another...

Haley [0:43:11]: I would say, again, big mistake that I see and people really like, let's do personalization.

Haley [0:43:17]: That's...

Haley [0:43:17]: I keep saying that because it's like, a really big one.

Haley [0:43:19]: Not good, like, people come doing all the time.

Haley [0:43:22]: I and you're, like, give a let's look at this and this.

Haley [0:43:25]: Oh, donations cracked.

Haley [0:43:27]: And that's where we start.

Matt [0:43:28]: Yeah.

Matt [0:43:28]: Yeah.

Matt [0:43:28]: Yeah.

Matt [0:43:29]: I love that.

Matt [0:43:29]: Yeah I...

Matt [0:43:30]: I...

Matt [0:43:30]: And I think social proof.

Matt [0:43:32]: I'm not gonna say the bar has has lowered.

Matt [0:43:34]: I just think it's...

Matt [0:43:35]: You can be scrap with it now.

Matt [0:43:36]: Like...

Matt [0:43:37]: Yeah.

Matt [0:43:37]: Need to fly to your client site across the country and video tape them for two hours with drones to get a good testimonial anymore.

Matt [0:43:45]: Like, you could...

Matt [0:43:46]: And and that stuff doesn't even work that well.

Matt [0:43:48]: Like, if I went in a website and saw that.

Matt [0:43:50]: I would be, like, oh, wow.

Matt [0:43:51]: You got your happiest customer.

Matt [0:43:53]: And highest production possible thing.

Matt [0:43:57]: Like, and they're wearing, like, a suit and tie and are, like, thirty year senior me.

Matt [0:44:01]: Like, that doesn't speak at all.

Matt [0:44:03]: It's so much easier now.

Matt [0:44:04]: You can...

Matt [0:44:05]: Even in an industry that is just, like, you know, more p and proper, more white collar.

Matt [0:44:09]: I still think you can be scrappy with it, something that we did recently with Exit Five was we sent we're using this tool called testimonial dot t o, which allows you to essentially set a link to somebody and says, hey, you know, we'd love if you can leave us a review.

Matt [0:44:25]: It'll take you a couple minutes.

Matt [0:44:26]: Click here, and then they could choose text or video if they choose text, they can write it up.

Matt [0:44:30]: And we give the prompting questions.

Matt [0:44:32]: And if it's video, same thing.

Matt [0:44:33]: Like, they can just record a video just off their laptop.

Matt [0:44:36]: And that's so much more powerful just to, you know, for other people to see your customers just talking from a laptop out of their home or out of their office you're saying, yeah, you know, Exit Five's is a great tool that's helped me do X y instead, would highly recommend if you're in B2b marketing.

Matt [0:44:50]: Like, that alone is just crazy valuable.

Matt [0:44:53]: It's so raw.

Matt [0:44:54]: The social proof, and it's really just undeniable.

Matt [0:44:56]: Like, if somebody is willing to do that, you can almost guarantee.

Matt [0:44:59]: It's gonna build some trust in the audience because they're like, oh, like, people...

Matt [0:45:02]: Here's twenty people that went a video and talk about this product.

Matt [0:45:05]: Like, it must be decent.

Matt [0:45:06]: Right?

Haley [0:45:08]: I'm hundred percent.

Haley [0:45:08]: People want the bra, They want the also take, they want the genuine.

Haley [0:45:12]: They don't want the fabricated and the smoke in the mirrors and the crowd that your marketing team created and, like, put a veil over.

Haley [0:45:20]: People...

Haley [0:45:21]: These days are very att to that, maybe more than ever.

Haley [0:45:25]: I I mean, that's maybe a big statement.

Haley [0:45:27]: But, like, Yeah.

Haley [0:45:28]: People have bullshit detectors, and they're very good now, especially with Ai.

Haley [0:45:33]: You.

Haley [0:45:34]: So you're right.

Haley [0:45:35]: Right.

Matt [0:45:36]: Okay.

Matt [0:45:36]: I have a couple more questions here.

Matt [0:45:38]: One is where do you see is usually, you know, what gets in the way of building this system or, you know, really properly experimenting and testing?

Matt [0:45:50]: Like, where do you see marketing teams, getting blocked or stuck with this?

Haley [0:45:55]: One big one can be egos and that can just be, going back to, like, I can be the best to all in the world and there's nothing I can do.

Haley [0:46:05]: Usually, if he goes involved, that's more of those cases where people within the company, whether that be higher ups or any level really, but has some level of decision making.

Haley [0:46:18]: Is like, no.

Haley [0:46:19]: We know best or we've been doing this way forever, and this is how we will continue doing it forever, and we are not open to changes.

Haley [0:46:26]: And this that and the other.

Haley [0:46:28]: Like, that is one of the biggest blockers for sure, like I can't do anything about that.

Haley [0:46:32]: Right?

Haley [0:46:32]: Like, I can talk to him Blue in the face usually, and it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Haley [0:46:35]: I'm gonna try.

Haley [0:46:36]: But I don't know win.

Haley [0:46:38]: And then other bloggers would be, like, a commerce budget, especially for, like, the bigger programs and for doing testing.

Haley [0:46:46]: If you're doing zero well, Usually, it is somewhat expensive.

Haley [0:46:53]: Like, there is a cost to it.

Haley [0:46:54]: That's just what it is.

Haley [0:46:55]: It requires a lot of resources.

Haley [0:46:57]: It's a very specialized skill.

Haley [0:47:00]: Don't even get me started on the tangent of Ai replacing the cro strategist for, like, the human component of this to a large extent, Like, no.

Haley [0:47:10]: That's not...

Haley [0:47:11]: That's...

Haley [0:47:11]: I'll just save it.

Haley [0:47:13]: And then...

Matt [0:47:15]: Mh Yeah.

Haley [0:47:15]: But...

Haley [0:47:15]: Yeah.

Haley [0:47:16]: But, you know, I don't wanna say that to, like, people listening or we're, like, oh, it's expensive great.

Haley [0:47:20]: Two now because there are things that you can do that are lower cost for sure, but, you know, budget on the big side is usually a blocker.

Haley [0:47:28]: And then another one is, like, resources.

Haley [0:47:31]: So, like, if you hire someone like myself, my team from the outside to come in, there has to be at least some level of collaboration.

Haley [0:47:41]: Like, there has to at least the one human on the team to manage the relationship or at least keep an eye or, like, give approvals for things.

Haley [0:47:52]: So if the team is really, really strapped, that's a blocker.

Haley [0:47:57]: I would say those are the big ones.

Haley [0:48:00]: Yeah.

Haley [0:48:01]: That's probably the end of my answer there.

Matt [0:48:03]: K.

Matt [0:48:03]: Cool.

Matt [0:48:04]: Love it.

Matt [0:48:04]: Alright.

Matt [0:48:05]: Another thing, you know, in any of your work recently or anything you can think of, is there a test result that has really shocked you.

Matt [0:48:14]: Like, you know, something that you've done that was, like, yes.

Matt [0:48:16]: I did not expect that.

Matt [0:48:17]: And and maybe we can pull some learnings out of that.

Haley [0:48:20]: Yes.

Haley [0:48:20]: And this is the fun part about testing is that people think they know it's best.

Haley [0:48:24]: They think they know the answers, especially if the c suites dictating like, hey.

Haley [0:48:30]: We're doing this, and they probably would have done was out of test, but there's a hero team, and they were like, hey, let's test it.

Haley [0:48:36]: So they, you know, they're testing it, but they're like, no.

Haley [0:48:39]: We know.

Haley [0:48:39]: And then it loses and they're like, what?

Haley [0:48:42]: Like, this is exactly why the test.

Haley [0:48:45]: So one test that comes to mind that really did.

Haley [0:48:49]: I was like, oh, wow.

Haley [0:48:50]: That's a shocker is, it was a e comm.

Haley [0:48:53]: But still applicable to the loss of companies.

Haley [0:48:55]: In the top navigation site wide in the header, their control or, like, their existing initial version had imagery.

Haley [0:49:03]: So, you know, it's, like, link with an image link with an image link with an image.

Haley [0:49:07]: And they, after their team wanted to try removing the images and have text only.

Haley [0:49:16]: I thought that would lose.

Haley [0:49:18]: I thought the design was not as strong.

Haley [0:49:22]: And it got a little over seven percent lift in transactions.

Haley [0:49:28]: I was so surprised.

Haley [0:49:30]: And that was it full statistical significance.

Haley [0:49:32]: I can't remember what the confidence interval was off the top of my head.

Haley [0:49:36]: But I mean, like that's significant in actual bottom line transactions from just removing images, which is, like, one of the easiest tests.

Matt [0:49:44]: Yep.

Haley [0:49:44]: That you could set up.

Haley [0:49:45]: I mean, that's huge.

Matt [0:49:47]: Absolutely.

Matt [0:49:47]: Yeah.

Matt [0:49:48]: That's awesome.

Matt [0:49:48]: I love that.

Matt [0:49:49]: Of that.

Matt [0:49:49]: And and last thing is is there, like, an overrated metric or an overrated way at teams?

Matt [0:49:58]: Or...

Matt [0:49:59]: Yeah.

Matt [0:49:59]: What...

Matt [0:49:59]: Is there an overrated metric in conversion optimization like, anything that you think teams shouldn't pay attention to that they do?

Haley [0:50:06]: No.

Haley [0:50:06]: Not one in particular, but I have a very strong stance on this at a higher level, which I think better answers the question.

Haley [0:50:13]: If you've talked to me, could people know.

Haley [0:50:16]: I have a very strong getting on this if you've worked with me before, but there...

Haley [0:50:20]: When you run tests or you're doing work really if any kind research, whatever, you're gonna have a primary metric or maybe two that you're going after.

Haley [0:50:29]: So on the B side, let's just say it's form submissions, and you're trying to get leads.

Haley [0:50:35]: That would be a primary metric to me.

Haley [0:50:40]: Then you have secondary metrics.

Haley [0:50:41]: Maybe a tertiary distinction, I don't think that's, like, that necessary.

Haley [0:50:46]: I would just say primary secondary.

Haley [0:50:47]: So then secondary for me would be things like bounce rate.

Haley [0:50:52]: Rate, session duration, scroll depth, clicks on something, things like that.

Haley [0:50:59]: Engagement type metrics, are, like, very common I'll use that as an example.

Haley [0:51:03]: So the opposite of that that I would say is a big mistake or however you wanna frame it over hype.

Haley [0:51:12]: Whatever would be the opposite of using the vanity metrics the did what I call secondary metrics as primary metrics.

Matt [0:51:21]: Right.

Haley [0:51:22]: And then thinking of the bottom line metrics is, like, oh, those are nice to have.

Haley [0:51:26]: They're like, yeah, It'll trickle down with see what happens.

Haley [0:51:28]: They're like, no.

Haley [0:51:29]: That's secondary because we don't have enough traffic in data volume or whatever.

Haley [0:51:32]: Like, there's all kinds of reasons people flip those.

Haley [0:51:35]: That's one of the biggest mistakes that you can make in my opinion.

Haley [0:51:39]: And I'm hardcore, like, the bottom line metrics need to be primary.

Haley [0:51:43]: That's what we're going after and the strategy revolves around that.

Haley [0:51:46]: Because if you're gonna go...

Haley [0:51:48]: To get rid your c suite at the end of a quarter.

Haley [0:51:50]: And you're like, yeah.

Haley [0:51:53]: We decrease bounce rate by twenty percent, and we increase these clicks by fifty percent.

Haley [0:51:58]: Like, who gives a flying shit.

Haley [0:52:00]: Like Yeah.

Haley [0:52:01]: That's not gonna justify thousands of or hundreds of thousands of dollars in investment in this work or whatever you're doing Really?

Haley [0:52:09]: They're, like, okay.

Haley [0:52:10]: Well, how does that affect the bottom line?

Haley [0:52:11]: Yep.

Haley [0:52:12]: That's that's revenue.

Haley [0:52:13]: That's form submission sets.

Haley [0:52:16]: M q.

Haley [0:52:16]: That's Sql, Sao.

Haley [0:52:18]: That's Arr.

Haley [0:52:19]: That's lifetime value.

Haley [0:52:21]: That's transaction actually, like, that's all the money.

Haley [0:52:23]: Related.

Haley [0:52:24]: Right?

Haley [0:52:24]: So that's how I would answer that question.

Matt [0:52:28]: Okay.

Matt [0:52:28]: I love that.

Matt [0:52:28]: Yeah.

Matt [0:52:28]: That just goes with so many things in B2b b and in marketing when you're reporting what you're working on is, like, you just have to find a way to tie it back to that.

Matt [0:52:37]: So if the thing is you got ten perform submissions this month on whatever that forum is.

Matt [0:52:43]: And add the ten submissions, you know that equals five more opportunities for the sales team.

Matt [0:52:49]: And from those five opportunities, one of them is more...

Matt [0:52:52]: Is likely to close.

Matt [0:52:53]: Let's just say it's twenty percent close rate.

Matt [0:52:55]: Then it's like, great.

Matt [0:52:56]: We got an extra ten k and Mr from this test.

Matt [0:52:59]: And that's what you lead with That's the hook is, like, we ran a test, and we got an extra ten k and arr from it.

Matt [0:53:05]: And then allow them to peel back the onion unmute sale, like, How did you do that?

Matt [0:53:09]: What happened?

Matt [0:53:09]: They walk me through it?

Matt [0:53:10]: And then if they're interested in in knowing those secondary metrics that you said about, maybe you can bring them up there.

Matt [0:53:16]: But most of them are just gonna wanna know, like, high level the story, and then it's, like, great.

Matt [0:53:20]: Let's just keep doing it and let me know how it could help invest more in these tests and what you're doing.

Matt [0:53:25]: So love up.

Haley [0:53:26]: Exactly.

Haley [0:53:26]: And I wanna throw in and I know we're almost the time I wanna throw in.

Haley [0:53:29]: If a team's response back to what you and I just said is, well, we can't measure those bottom line things, not an excuse, completely unacceptable excuse.

Haley [0:53:41]: Yeah.

Haley [0:53:42]: Yeah.

Haley [0:53:42]: That's just it.

Haley [0:53:43]: Yeah.

Haley [0:53:44]: If that's...

Haley [0:53:44]: It's just not unacceptable.

Matt [0:53:45]: Yeah.

Matt [0:53:45]: I agree.

Matt [0:53:46]: I agree.

Matt [0:53:46]: I think there...

Matt [0:53:47]: There's always way to tie back if if you don't know how or you know, you're saying there's no ways Just...

Matt [0:53:53]: You just haven't figured it out.

Matt [0:53:54]: But there's always a way you got...

Matt [0:53:55]: You gotta be able to talk about what you're doing and how it's affecting the business, especially in this setting where you're literally looking at one thing versus the other.

Matt [0:54:02]: I think you should build to have a clear idea.

Matt [0:54:04]: And then if not, it's it's kinda like, well, why did you do it in the first place?

Matt [0:54:07]: If you didn't even know what it was gonna impact.

Matt [0:54:09]: Alright?

Matt [0:54:10]: So...

Haley [0:54:11]: And good exactly.

Haley [0:54:11]: Yeah.

Haley [0:54:12]: Yes.

Matt [0:54:13]: Alright.

Matt [0:54:13]: Well, I think that's a good note for us to end on Haley, this has been awesome.

Matt [0:54:17]: I appreciate all your insights.

Matt [0:54:18]: I know you're very active on Linkedin.

Matt [0:54:20]: So I'm sure people could find you there and and dig deeper there's so much more in this topic.

Matt [0:54:24]: And you're also inside the x Exit Five community.

Matt [0:54:27]: And who one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today is because you're always in the community delivering a ton of value to the other members commenting on stuff and and just giving away so much great knowledge.

Matt [0:54:36]: So again, I appreciate it, and we'll see you around.

Matt [0:54:40]: Okay?

Haley [0:54:41]: Yeah.

Haley [0:54:41]: Thanks for having me.

Matt [0:54:42]: Alright.

Matt [0:54:42]: Thanks, Haley.

Matt [0:54:42]: Bye.

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