#327: How to Lead Marketing Through the AI Shift with Bill Glenn (SVP of Marketing at Esper)

#327 | Jess Lytle is joined by Bill Glenn, SVP of Marketing at Esper, for a conversation about what it actually looks like to lead a marketing team through the AI shift. They talk about why most teams are still figuring AI out, how leaders should think about adoption beyond just tools, and why curiosity and experimentation matter more than having the “right” answers. Bill also shares how Esper is rolling out AI across the company with guardrails, the internal process they use to evaluate new tools, and why the biggest opportunity right now is using AI to eliminate busywork and unlock better thinking.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Why AI feels overwhelming for marketing leaders
  
• (04:06) - What Esper does and why software powering hardware matters
  
• (06:51) - Why AI feels like the early internet shift
  
• (08:41) - Leading with curiosity instead of pretending to be an AI expert
  
• (11:21) - Why AI adoption is a behavior change problem, not a tools problem
  
• (13:21) - How Esper is rolling out AI with guardrails across the company
  
• (19:06) - Why “boring AI” that saves time matters most
  
• (20:21) - Phase 1 vs Phase 2 AI adoption in marketing teams
  
• (32:09) - AI, mentorship, and preparing the next generation of marketers
  
• (44:54) - Leadership advice for first-time CMOs and VPs
  
• (49:59) - Final takeaways and wrap-up

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Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.

Jess Lytle [0:00:17]: For anyone listening today, Jess Lytle On hosting the Exit Five podcast, and I'm joined by Bill Glenn is the sv of marketing at Esper, at Bellevue.

Jess Lytle [0:00:27]: And Bill, do you wanna tell us a little bit about Esper and what you guys do.

Bill [0:00:31]: Yeah.

Bill [0:00:31]: Absolutely.

Bill [0:00:31]: And Jess, thanks for having me first of all, this it's awesome to be part of the the Exit Five community and just really enjoyed being part of the CMO type of conversation about, you know, where is the market hit?

Bill [0:00:43]: Whereas Ai headed, like, love that you're doubling down here on Ai, and I think it's gonna be really helpful for the community.

Bill [0:00:49]: So thank you for that.

Jess Lytle [0:00:50]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:00:50]: Thanks for being here.

Bill [0:00:52]: Esper is a an eight year old company now.

Bill [0:00:54]: We are privately held, but we are one of the fastest growing mobile device management companies in the world.

Bill [0:01:01]: And we are in the business of trying to create exciting customer experiences through our partners and customers and the way in which we do that is we build software, that powers hardware devices at any industry that you can think of, but mostly we've been serving restaurants and retail locations.

Bill [0:01:22]: So by way of example, your point of sale systems and restaurants, your menu boards if you go into a fast food chain, most likely Esper is powering that menu board behind the scenes.

Bill [0:01:33]: So we're a little bit like an intel inside where most people don't know our brand.

Bill [0:01:37]: But when you start to look around you at all the different types of hardware devices like, in your fitness centers.

Bill [0:01:43]: We have customers that are driving some of the largest fitness centers in the world.

Bill [0:01:48]: And when you go in there and you see a screen of, like, what do you do for your workout?

Bill [0:01:52]: We're actually the software that's powering that particular what you might call a dumb screen or terminal.

Bill [0:01:58]: But it's a fun business because we have to think about the uptime and just the experience that all those devices power.

Bill [0:02:06]: And most people don't think about that.

Bill [0:02:09]: Yeah But you do think about it when it doesn't work.

Bill [0:02:11]: Right?

Bill [0:02:12]: And the second it doesn't work, guess who gets the phone call.

Bill [0:02:14]: Yeah.

Bill [0:02:15]: So so we're always in that

Jess Lytle [0:02:17]: It's working well where you think about it Nobody knows.

Jess Lytle [0:02:19]: And it's invisible To.

Jess Lytle [0:02:21]: Right.

Jess Lytle [0:02:21]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:02:21]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:02:22]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:02:22]: It's it's so interesting software to power hardware.

Jess Lytle [0:02:25]: I love learning about, like, all different types of software because you never think about all of these nuances, like, what you just said.

Jess Lytle [0:02:32]: And, like, now, I'll probably be paying more attention to that that you made me aware to it.

Jess Lytle [0:02:36]: But

Bill [0:02:37]: Absolutely.

Bill [0:02:37]: When you walk through the airport, all of those screens that you see with advertising going on, like, we're most likely behind some of that as well.

Bill [0:02:44]: But, yeah.

Bill [0:02:45]: It's sort of like, your everyday experiences just look around for, like, we were just talking to one of our customers and they work with all the telecommunications companies, and they think about the first rEsperonders Mh and all of the two way radios that are used for first rEsperonders.

Bill [0:02:59]: Those actually have very small screens, and they have software and apps being pushed to those Wow.

Bill [0:03:06]: What you would think are just really standard devices, but just the technology behind that is so much more sophisticated and the ability to connect over five g.

Bill [0:03:15]: Like, we are touching, you know, all the telecom without even again sort of them knowing it.

Bill [0:03:20]: And If we can help first rEsperonders make it a crispr phone call, then you talk about a really good customer experience?

Bill [0:03:27]: It's like, how do you make sure your first rEsperonders are always at the ready Wow through the hardware devices that they use.

Jess Lytle [0:03:33]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:03:33]: That's like critical.

Jess Lytle [0:03:34]: Critical.

Bill [0:03:35]: Yep.

Jess Lytle [0:03:36]: So that's great.

Jess Lytle [0:03:36]: So you guys, like, I'm, you vast over many different industries and spaces.

Bill [0:03:40]: That's.

Bill [0:03:40]: Right.

Jess Lytle [0:03:41]: That's really cool.

Jess Lytle [0:03:41]: I'm so excited to have you on bill.

Jess Lytle [0:03:44]: And like you said, he's part of our private community at x Exit Five or CMO counsel.

Jess Lytle [0:03:48]: Clearly has impressive experience many years, leading marketing teams long enough to have probably seen multiple waves of change, maybe not like what we're seeing with Ai, maybe.

Jess Lytle [0:03:59]: But what I really appreciate about your perspective and what you said to me when I asked you to join the podcast us was how grounded and, like, honest your rEsperonse was, when it came to Ai.

Jess Lytle [0:04:09]: And we are all we are all learning this together.

Jess Lytle [0:04:13]: And I think that that's actually really what makes, you know, your approach so effective because us I think almost no one feels like they've cracked the code here, even the big players feel like they're wing it.

Jess Lytle [0:04:25]: You know, I certainly do.

Jess Lytle [0:04:27]: I'm I'm not a big player, but the...

Jess Lytle [0:04:29]: Even the folks that I follow are are feeling that.

Jess Lytle [0:04:31]: That I would consider power users in this space.

Jess Lytle [0:04:34]: So I think that that's...

Jess Lytle [0:04:35]: It's a really...

Jess Lytle [0:04:36]: It's a really great approach to this.

Jess Lytle [0:04:38]: Tell me a little bit about that?

Jess Lytle [0:04:40]: Like, how is that approach helping your team.

Bill [0:04:43]: Absolutely.

Bill [0:04:43]: Maybe else...

Bill [0:04:44]: Start with this because this even happened after you and I first spoke about this.

Bill [0:04:48]: So I sort doubled down on the...

Bill [0:04:50]: I don't know what I don't know.

Bill [0:04:52]: And that's okay.

Bill [0:04:53]: And I've taken an approach started a year ago, but really trying to double down this year I'm like, the growth mindset and just being overly curious.

Bill [0:05:02]: And being okay with not having the answered everything.

Bill [0:05:06]: And, like, that just starts with, like, being more comfortable with yourself as a human, to be like, I don't have to be perfect, and that's okay.

Bill [0:05:14]: But what I do need to do is recognize my opportunity to learn from others.

Jess Lytle [0:05:19]: Mh

Bill [0:05:19]: And I believe that Ai just like when the Internet was born and, yes, you were correct and to You know, I've been through that, like, oh, now, I'm in the working world, and there's this thing called the

Jess Lytle [0:05:30]: changed and I everybody worked.

Jess Lytle [0:05:31]: Shane.

Jess Lytle [0:05:31]: Right?

Bill [0:05:32]: That's right.

Bill [0:05:32]: And I just had kinda started in the working world coming into this saying, hey, how are we gonna adapt to this?

Bill [0:05:38]: I was living actually in in San Francisco.

Bill [0:05:40]: So the sort was at the forefront of how do we think about putting this into our business model?

Bill [0:05:46]: Mh.

Bill [0:05:46]: And how do we move from brick and mortar to everything's gonna be e commerce.

Bill [0:05:50]: And now here we are again.

Bill [0:05:52]: Right?

Bill [0:05:52]: And what is that twenty, twenty five years later, And it's that same inflection point moment.

Bill [0:05:57]: And I recall distinctly, you know, some of my roommates in San Francisco.

Bill [0:06:01]: We were all like, this is the next big thing, and we have to embrace it.

Bill [0:06:05]: And we were all, like, looking around at each other Like, where do we start?

Bill [0:06:08]: Where's the book?

Bill [0:06:09]: Where's the playbook?

Bill [0:06:10]: Right?

Bill [0:06:10]: Nobody has it.

Bill [0:06:11]: And so here we are again, but you hundred x kind of, I feel like the impact of Ai to to just the Internet.

Bill [0:06:18]: And for me, this is where I come back to the double down of, I literally wrote a like, a detailed sort of, like, what's my biggest gap for the year that I wanna solve either personally or professional

Jess Lytle [0:06:31]: that.

Bill [0:06:32]: And this one ties specifically to both where I basically just said I'm gonna embrace Ai, and I'm gonna try to do it in both of my worlds in a way that it can be useful to me, but it doesn't determine sort of, like, how I live my day.

Bill [0:06:47]: And I and I...

Bill [0:06:49]: What I mean by that is, like, I want it to be my copilot truly.

Bill [0:06:53]: And I wanna learn from it, and I want it to know me, but I also am, like, it's important to me to keep the human element.

Jess Lytle [0:07:01]: Yes.

Bill [0:07:02]: And the curiosity is sort of like, the...

Bill [0:07:04]: Where does Ai do really well, and and where does it not do well?

Bill [0:07:08]: And let's not just over rotate towards everything has to be Ai.

Bill [0:07:12]: Yeah And that's the mindset that I've not just tried for myself, but I've literally sort of shared that with my team to say, I think you all are ahead of me because I think a lot of my team embraced it faster than I did.

Bill [0:07:24]: And I'm, like, how can you actually turn the tables and be the coach back to me, Like, let's sort of eliminate the hierarchy of the org?

Bill [0:07:33]: And this is everybody's opportunity, not just in marketing, but in the entire company to really think about how they're gonna think about their career progression, and we are just trying to embrace that growth in curiosity mindset.

Bill [0:07:46]: Yes.

Bill [0:07:47]: And we wanna empower our...

Bill [0:07:48]: You know, the entire company.

Bill [0:07:50]: But for me, my marketing team to be okay with curiosity growth and failure as long as we're learning and sharing those learnings in real time.

Jess Lytle [0:07:59]: Gosh.

Jess Lytle [0:07:59]: There's so many points to that.

Jess Lytle [0:08:01]: I'm like, oh, I wanna come back that.

Jess Lytle [0:08:02]: No, I wanna come back

Jess [0:08:03]: to that.

Jess Lytle [0:08:04]: Gonna see if I could remember all of them because that's exactly what I think is needed right now.

Jess Lytle [0:08:09]: Where a lot of people are seeing, you know, some Ai power users on their team.

Jess Lytle [0:08:13]: But they're not really sure, you know, where to start or even find the the...

Jess Lytle [0:08:17]: Their own people in the company that are already doing these things.

Jess Lytle [0:08:21]: And a lot of the times, I think as leaders we think, okay.

Jess Lytle [0:08:24]: We need to outsource.

Jess Lytle [0:08:25]: We need to go find some Ai ops person and and a Gt engineer, but most likely the folks that are experimenting with Ai are probably already on your team.

Jess Lytle [0:08:36]: So have them surface that in some way and and pitch some ideas to you on things that they're doing, that's helping to kind of eliminate some of that manual boring stuff.

Jess Lytle [0:08:46]: I think that that's where Ai can excel where it keeps us in the in the thinking seat and the strategy seat, but it's taking away all the grunt work of building an internal deck or building a deck or analyzing a spreadsheet for two hours.

Jess Lytle [0:08:59]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:09:00]: Where we still get the output that we want as long as the quality is there, without having to, you know, do that execution work.

Jess Lytle [0:09:07]: But I loved your early on point where you're may...

Jess Lytle [0:09:10]: Drawing the comparison between like, the Internet coming out, like, existing.

Jess Lytle [0:09:15]: And that essentially, like, eliminated all of those...

Jess Lytle [0:09:18]: The books that I used to use or my dad's, like, encyclopedia collection.

Jess Lytle [0:09:22]: That is how I did my homework growing up.

Bill [0:09:26]: Say

Jess Lytle [0:09:26]: yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:09:26]: So it was probably...

Jess Lytle [0:09:27]: Do you see compares?

Jess Lytle [0:09:29]: Because this is as big of an event is that if not bigger.

Jess Lytle [0:09:32]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:09:33]: Like, there hasn't been anything like the Internet since Ai.

Jess Lytle [0:09:36]: When you think back to that time, like, was it similar in that it had to...

Jess Lytle [0:09:41]: Because what I...

Jess Lytle [0:09:42]: What I'm seeing is being a big issue with just like adoption and confusion.

Jess Lytle [0:09:47]: It's not even just about how many tools there are, because it...

Jess Lytle [0:09:50]: There are so many.

Jess Lytle [0:09:50]: It's overwhelming.

Jess Lytle [0:09:51]: It's it's it's kind of advancing at such a rapid pace, but it's more of the behavior.

Jess Lytle [0:09:56]: It's how we worked this way this long, and now we just have to immediately just work this other way, but how, you know, how Ai depending on the tool or the workflow, it's different for each person.

Bill [0:10:09]: That's right.

Bill [0:10:09]: That's right.

Bill [0:10:10]: And it maybe the way that I would sort of approach that, and I a hundred percent agree with you, like, this is the exact inflection point moment and feeling that most people had in the mid nineties?

Bill [0:10:20]: And it was those that were courageous enough to say, I don't know this.

Bill [0:10:26]: I don't understand it, but I'm not gonna shy away from it, and I'm gonna fail and learn and fail fast hopefully and just try it in different ways and that I think is the maybe the biggest takeaway for our company is it was almost like we were ready ahead of our board meeting when we knew some of our board members were gonna be like, what are you doing with Ai And so as an executive leadership team, we actually got together and we said, we need to get ahead of this first because we need to help guide the rest of the company on, like, what is the right approach?

Bill [0:10:59]: And do we have a policy around this and how do we kinda put guard rails without putting too much constraint around that.

Bill [0:11:05]: So Yes I really give a credit to our Ceo and our leadership team to step up and say, let's not shy away from this.

Bill [0:11:12]: And I think our biggest learning win was We did assign sort of, like, one of our El team members to we called it the tsar, but we intentionally said, yes, you sort of are the collector of, like, how are each of the departments thinking about using Ai and, like, what's the best use case or tools.

Bill [0:11:31]: But we didn't say, like, that single person had to run our Ai approach or project.

Bill [0:11:38]: We basically said each functional leader it has to think for themselves.

Bill [0:11:42]: But we have to keep...

Bill [0:11:44]: Continue to meet collectively so that we don't go build our strategy around Ai and silos.

Bill [0:11:50]: So we so we said sort of, like, the leadership team, we want to bring in other people who are Ai forward and we did.

Bill [0:11:57]: But we're like, it starts with us.

Bill [0:11:59]: Yes.

Bill [0:12:00]: And we have to show that we're embracing it.

Bill [0:12:02]: Otherwise, the rest of the company, just either they won't or they'll go do it Rogue and, like, that's the worst thing that can happen.

Bill [0:12:08]: Is it's like, we want people to embrace it and use it and feel comfortable bringing.

Bill [0:12:12]: Yes their supplemental, you know, c copilot with them.

Bill [0:12:16]: Mh.

Bill [0:12:16]: Because it is an absolutely gain game...

Bill [0:12:19]: It's an absolute game changer in terms of a, you know, tooling and how you can do your work like you said.

Bill [0:12:24]: And for the folks who are still afraid or just don't know how The answer is, like, just jump in.

Bill [0:12:29]: Just take that first step.

Bill [0:12:31]: Right?

Bill [0:12:31]: Don't think about the end product, just take the first step and it's surprising how many people myself included.

Bill [0:12:38]: Weren't ready to, like, just take that first step because I was like, oh, I wanna know everything before I go and, like, that's that's the same way with the Internet.

Bill [0:12:45]: You're like, you you'll never you'll never catch up to the Internet.

Bill [0:12:48]: So, like, just get in there and, like, you know, figure it out day by day.

Jess Lytle [0:12:52]: That's so true.

Jess Lytle [0:12:52]: And you made such a good point.

Jess Lytle [0:12:54]: A lot of the times, I think we think about our own department and silos and like, well, let me just solve this for even just marketing.

Jess Lytle [0:12:59]: But then you don't think about, you know, well, you do, you have to do at the level that your organization is is doing, Zoom out even further with, okay.

Jess Lytle [0:13:08]: But how is this gonna work across sales and product.

Jess Lytle [0:13:11]: And customer success and and everything else?

Jess Lytle [0:13:14]: And and then what are the tools that we need to connect the pieces too?

Jess Lytle [0:13:19]: Do we need a Rev ops person?

Jess Lytle [0:13:20]: Do we have an internal, you know, person that could do some of this?

Jess Lytle [0:13:23]: Is this is where...

Jess Lytle [0:13:23]: Where...

Jess Lytle [0:13:24]: How do we...

Jess Lytle [0:13:24]: So that is it's actually really interesting to hear how you guys have, you know, rolled that out and thought about that piece first, and then going into your own individual rEsperective departments and thinking about.

Jess Lytle [0:13:37]: Like, okay.

Jess Lytle [0:13:37]: So what makes the most sense for us.

Jess Lytle [0:13:39]: But I think there's so many good points there, and I think that's why even just with when I launched this newsletter that's, like, Ai focus for marketers.

Jess Lytle [0:13:47]: I tried to be as tactical and specific as possible because with any, like, anything that you're learning even, like, a software.

Jess Lytle [0:13:55]: It's it all feels very abstract until you, like you said, just get in there and actually do it and see the outcome.

Jess Lytle [0:14:02]: But I think there's is also...

Jess Lytle [0:14:04]: Like you said, there's this fear.

Jess Lytle [0:14:05]: And It's interesting because it's it's different depending on who you talk to.

Jess Lytle [0:14:10]: But for, like, for me, this wasn't as big of an issue, but I still wanted to find tools that were protective and, like, proprietary.

Jess Lytle [0:14:18]: So what's interesting is with the fear around look, I think there's fear around, like, security, data misuse.

Jess Lytle [0:14:25]: And folks thinking like, if I put this in here.

Jess Lytle [0:14:28]: Am I gonna lose my job.

Jess Lytle [0:14:29]: It's just, like, not even worth, you know, putting, like, doing this, so they just don't do anything.

Jess Lytle [0:14:33]: And then also, like, mistrust because, you know, we know that these these Ais can lie to us, they can.

Jess Lytle [0:14:40]: So once that trust is broken, I think it's harder to, like, trust.

Jess Lytle [0:14:45]: So I think as a leadership team you're saying, you know, hey.

Jess Lytle [0:14:48]: Hear some guard rails and like, we understand that these things can happen, but folks don't feel like, wow.

Jess Lytle [0:14:53]: Well, am I rEsperonsible for the outcome of what whatever the downfall is because I trusted this Ai, and it wasn't Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:15:01]: Correct.

Jess Lytle [0:15:01]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:15:01]: So...

Bill [0:15:03]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:15:03]: That can be scary.

Bill [0:15:05]: Yeah.

Bill [0:15:05]: And maybe I can comment just a little bit further because we did take it one step further than just saying, you know, each functional leader has to figure it out.

Bill [0:15:13]: Part of our committee around Ai included our It leader and our people team leader because we wanted there to be an official policy, such that you have a reference document as an employee to be, like, sort of what is the inbound and what is out of bounds and then that has to be kept up because things changing daily, you know, tools come out that you're like, I haven't tried that.

Bill [0:15:36]: Right?

Bill [0:15:36]: And more people aren't bringing them into the org.

Bill [0:15:38]: Yeah.

Bill [0:15:38]: So we did define a very clear process for folks to say, it's never gonna be perfect.

Bill [0:15:44]: But if you can sort of follow these steps of if, you know, if you wanna introduce a new tool, here's how you would bring it to either your manager or specifically to our It team It team who also run security for us.

Bill [0:15:57]: And there's...

Bill [0:15:58]: So there's a little bit of a vetting process.

Bill [0:16:00]: It's not like the full Wild West.

Jess Lytle [0:16:03]: That's great.

Bill [0:16:03]: Yeah.

Bill [0:16:03]: But at the same time, we're, like, we kept sending the message of if you find something that you think is going to be game changing for our company don't shy away from it, because they don't make your own determination around security or compliance.

Bill [0:16:17]: Like, we have people that can help you with that.

Bill [0:16:19]: So we kind of encourage them to say, go pilot it if you can without ingesting any proprietary company tech, information into the tool.

Bill [0:16:30]: Like, just play around with it.

Bill [0:16:31]: A lot of these tools out there right have, like, your, you know, five or seven day or thirty day free trials.

Bill [0:16:37]: Like, without giving away the Ip, you can just get sort of a feel for, like, what could this thing do?

Jess Lytle [0:16:44]: Yes.

Bill [0:16:44]: And then we're, like, bring it to us and if you think it can be valuable, Like, we will evaluate it at a committee level, and we promise to be fast around, like, the decision around something.

Bill [0:16:54]: Yes.

Bill [0:16:54]: Because we know it has to of move at the speed of this.

Jess Lytle [0:16:57]: I love that.

Jess Lytle [0:16:58]: So I love that.

Jess Lytle [0:16:59]: I was actually reading about how Google's is doing this internally, and they did something like, very similar to that, and then they just made it more public where they're trying to basically find, like, the people in their company who are, like, the Ai rock stars.

Jess Lytle [0:17:13]: The Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:17:14]: People that are doing this, and they're like, but but they wanna hear about it, and I love what you guys did where you you made them feel very comfortable with that experimentation and just, like here's some guard guidelines here's how to do it, you know, without leaking that that info, but see if it can eliminate some of that work, so they did, like a shark tank kinda style where someone could bring a tool And like.

Jess Lytle [0:17:35]: And they just...

Jess Lytle [0:17:36]: No decks or anything.

Jess Lytle [0:17:37]: They just show the tool.

Jess Lytle [0:17:38]: You know, they share their screen.

Jess Lytle [0:17:39]: They walk through, like, hey, this is how this is eliminating two hours.

Jess Lytle [0:17:42]: I don't have to actually put this deck together anymore.

Jess Lytle [0:17:46]: I give it the prompt it spits out a deck in ten minutes, and I go and work on something else.

Jess Lytle [0:17:51]: So what was interesting too is they they push for folks to pitch, like, the boring Ais.

Jess Lytle [0:17:56]: Like the, you know, the the ones that are gonna not like the flashy you, like, oh my god.

Jess Lytle [0:18:01]: It's like the one that's doing predictive analytics, but it's more of, like, what's actually taking your...

Jess Lytle [0:18:07]: Like, doing the work you hate, which for me was just living in spreadsheets when I just...

Jess Lytle [0:18:12]: I know the data that I need.

Jess Lytle [0:18:13]: I've got my report from the crm.

Jess Lytle [0:18:15]: And I'm, like, I just want to get that output, but do I wanna spend two hours in Excel you know, doing, you know, pivot tables?

Jess Lytle [0:18:23]: No.

Jess Lytle [0:18:24]: So that's those are, like, the instances for me that I'm like, I don't enjoy that aspect of, but this is a very big part of my job, and I need the I need that output.

Jess Lytle [0:18:33]: And I know the questions that I need to ask to get that information.

Jess Lytle [0:18:37]: I know the data that I need need to give it.

Jess Lytle [0:18:39]: But as it goes and works on my spreadsheet for two hour or, you know, thirty minutes, I can go work on strategy or something else.

Jess Lytle [0:18:46]: So those boring things that really eliminate the manual work, I think are a great place to start.

Bill [0:18:52]: Yeah.

Bill [0:18:52]: Maybe if I could just add to that because I've been thinking about this in real time as how I kinda roll this out to my team, is it's like a maturity model where we're...

Bill [0:19:01]: Like, we're all at phase zero or phase one, which is exactly that of, like, how do you think about that repeatable, process oriented work work product that you have to do every day?

Jess Lytle [0:19:13]: And...

Jess Lytle [0:19:13]: Yes.

Bill [0:19:14]: To me, Ai phase one is about, you know, productivity gains and being intentional about, efficiency, and that's how folks are measuring it, which is, like, how many hours did I get back in my day.

Bill [0:19:26]: Right?

Bill [0:19:26]: And to me, the holy grail of sort of when I think about my team being successful it's the ones that go, Yep.

Bill [0:19:35]: I've already figured out how to do phase one.

Bill [0:19:38]: And now I'm in into phase two of what's the impact type of work that can be given to Ai, like you were saying, it's like, how do how do you have it be truly your c copilot to be like, what insights can I get from my customer data?

Bill [0:19:54]: What is, you know, how is it that machine learning can actually assist my decision making processes?

Bill [0:20:01]: Yes.

Bill [0:20:01]: Less so about the...

Bill [0:20:03]: Like, it's almost...

Bill [0:20:04]: It's phase one is gonna become table stakes at some point in time.

Bill [0:20:07]: Yeah And the expectation is sort of already there from some forward thinking boards of, like, we expect the El to be all over the efficiency gains.

Bill [0:20:15]: Now it's the what are you learning in with augmented you know, brain power and capacity with you as a c copilot that allows you to sort of see where the market is headed?

Bill [0:20:26]: And what are you doing about that as humans to take advantage of the ability to, like, get those insights out of machines faster.

Bill [0:20:35]: And Yeah.

Bill [0:20:36]: I haven't found a lot of companies who are there yet, but I think that's where we're all going in that phase too.

Bill [0:20:41]: And at some point in time, I think then we'll be, like, the phase three and the phase four, which is, like, how are software companies building that right into their product.

Bill [0:20:50]: And there's some that are, you know, already there today or they're getting there faster.

Bill [0:20:54]: Which is like, how do you have that c copilot sitting the right on your desktop in a way that you're just interfacing with it and getting those insights without having to, sort of go off in your own Gp and think about as a separate workflow.

Bill [0:21:08]: Right.

Bill [0:21:08]: It's like, no.

Bill [0:21:09]: It has to be just in your daily rhythm of work.

Bill [0:21:12]: And, to me.

Bill [0:21:13]: That's the phase three that I'm I'm looking for.

Jess Lytle [0:21:15]: Know that I love how you explain that in different phases because it does start to get complex when you think about tool and behavior change with humans and adoption.

Jess Lytle [0:21:25]: And and then learning tools on their own to help them with their own day to day work.

Jess Lytle [0:21:29]: But I think you're right in that that first phase, I was reading about this where, you know, you've got...

Jess Lytle [0:21:35]: For an example, a product marketer who's using Ai to using For an example, I know you a lot of product marketers love this tool because they can, you know, use call transcripts and upload so many sources sales, you know, sales call transcripts and use that to create content or battle cards or give them information.

Jess Lytle [0:21:54]: Things that would have taken them weeks to do are taking them hours to do.

Jess Lytle [0:21:58]: But That's right.

Jess Lytle [0:21:59]: What I'm finding is that, you know, they may just be a a more tech forward person, and they tried these different tools, and they've realized oh my gosh.

Jess Lytle [0:22:08]: I can get the output I need in hours, which is, you know, if you were doing this before the tool and after the tool, it's kind of a mind blowing experience.

Jess Lytle [0:22:16]: But a product marketer told me that her boss is now asking, like, how do I scale that.

Bill [0:22:24]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:22:25]: The rest of the team.

Jess Lytle [0:22:26]: Because they're working at two to three times the rate and capacity of what you know, I guess, a human without Ai is working, in that way, just from a workflow perspective.

Bill [0:22:38]: And I would just say to that, it speaks to exactly where we started, which is if I think that I should be the leader that comes in and has all the answers.

Bill [0:22:46]: I know I've gotten it wrong, which is let the folks on my team who are more Ai forward than me, lead this in a way that it allows them to to feel valued and validated that they have a real meaningful contribution to the company.

Bill [0:23:02]: But it also gives them a clear path to say, you actually are impacting the trajectory of this business in a way that not only will they become as an example smarter marketer, but I look at it as this is your inherent professional development happening in real time.

Bill [0:23:21]: So rather than the traditional, like, let's work with the people team on, like, a, six to twelve month professional development program, and we should send you into a conference.

Bill [0:23:30]: It's like, nope.

Bill [0:23:31]: Nope Nope.

Bill [0:23:32]: It doesn't work like that anymore, like, let's let anybody at any, you know, a level in the organization, leap frog, leveraging Ai to be like, they can make such impactful decisions and produce such impactful outcome that I think it really is about, like, restructuring the organization and, like, the change management like you talked about, like, this is a change management

Jess Lytle [0:23:58]: mode Yes.

Bill [0:23:59]: Of, maybe this, like, gets rid of the hierarchy of the workforce.

Bill [0:24:02]: Like, it feels like there still needs to be a little bit of structure, but I don't like thinking about this in the context of, like, well, you're at this level and so you get this level of tooling, like, Mh.

Bill [0:24:13]: I wanna empower people to be, like, how did I stitch all of the processes cross functionally together in a way that it breaks down the silos, and I think that's gonna come from people who are in the tools every day going, oh, I didn't realize that if I integrated it with this other tool or it's you know, already assimilated with our Crm like you said.

Bill [0:24:35]: Like, we're gonna...

Bill [0:24:36]: We're actually gonna be able to empower people outside of marketing to help us find market insights that would be amazing.

Bill [0:24:43]: If an engineer came to us and said, hey, I think there's something here, and there's a market here because I'm watching this happen in the way in which we're trying to create more of that visibility through the ai tooling.

Bill [0:24:55]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:24:55]: And it it was interesting because I was I was reading this it was like a report or maybe an article that just came out from Google where they were talking about, like, how with Ai, it's just...

Jess Lytle [0:25:08]: It's advancing at such a warp speed that, like, humans we tend to adopt things more like log.

Jess Lytle [0:25:15]: So, like, we'll they'll be a big burst of interest, and then you'll start to feel...

Jess Lytle [0:25:20]: Like, there's a plateau or flattening, but the gap feels so wide because it's like, the Ai is advancing the Ai even more due to the nature of Ai.

Jess Lytle [0:25:29]: So, like, the gap keeps growing wider and wider.

Jess Lytle [0:25:32]: So it's like, it's less even about.

Jess Lytle [0:25:34]: I think it started with the tooling, but it's like less about what tools.

Jess Lytle [0:25:38]: It's more of like the adoption piece.

Jess Lytle [0:25:40]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:25:41]: The behavior change piece because you could find the best tools for your business for every single person every department to use.

Jess Lytle [0:25:48]: But if we don't fix the the behavior change thing, We're not thinking about that, then we're gonna just be kind of observing from the outside going.

Jess Lytle [0:25:57]: Well what do we now what?

Jess Lytle [0:25:58]: Because Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:25:59]: I, like, that's why I love your approach, which is, like, just bring it forward and and more experimental and not afraid to fail and just being more courageous and actually bring forward to prompt that didn't work.

Jess Lytle [0:26:09]: Or bring forward, you know, even with the Ai you're experimenting like, I was terrible with some of these tools when I first started using them.

Jess Lytle [0:26:15]: I'm like oh, is this that good really?

Jess Lytle [0:26:17]: But then I actually tried different things, and I started, you know, and I, like, I got better every time, I did the tool.

Jess Lytle [0:26:24]: So even sharing those failures and having that culture.

Jess Lytle [0:26:27]: It's really a culture change too, I think.

Bill [0:26:30]: With this.

Bill [0:26:30]: It absolutely is.

Bill [0:26:31]: If I can use a perfect example of that, I was fortunate enough to meet a gentleman who was the former Ai strategist for.

Jess Lytle [0:26:41]: Okay.

Bill [0:26:41]: And he actually went out on his own, and he's now started a company that is basically a training company for Ai specifically.

Bill [0:26:50]: Okay.

Bill [0:26:51]: And he wants to do it mostly at the executive level to get people to, you know, kinda embrace it.

Bill [0:26:57]: But his insight was I'm starting with the Ceo paired with the chief human resources officer.

Bill [0:27:05]: Right?

Bill [0:27:05]: Chief People officer because it's a change management meets human issue that we're dealing with here, and he viewed it and I view it the same way, which is it's an amazing way to elevate the chief people officer and tie that person to technology, but keeping the human element because Again, it's not that one leader does it for the whole company.

Bill [0:27:28]: But if the chief people officer is the one that kind of bring, you know, kind of is leading and rallying the the company together, it's in...

Bill [0:27:37]: It almost ensures that you keep the people element to this, and it's not about the tooling.

Bill [0:27:41]: It's about the change management and how people interface with the tools?

Bill [0:27:45]: Yes.

Bill [0:27:46]: But from, you know, that human stays in...

Bill [0:27:48]: Not just in the loop, But really top of mind for, like, how does this shape your culture?

Bill [0:27:53]: Yeah.

Bill [0:27:53]: So to me, that was, like, the biggest insight.

Bill [0:27:56]: And what I learned because I've done a lot of marketing in the Hr space is the the age old adage is, like, Hr leaders never have a seat at the table.

Bill [0:28:04]: And I'm like, wow.

Bill [0:28:06]: Like, this is their inflection point moment to actually get the seat of the table so the Cp that are out there, you know, embracing Ai.

Bill [0:28:14]: They actually can elevate their career and they can be tip of the spear around technology, which is like, kind of ironic that it's, like, it it took this level of technology to actually elevate the the chief people officer in the company.

Jess Lytle [0:28:29]: I love that.

Jess Lytle [0:28:29]: Thank you for sharing max.

Jess Lytle [0:28:30]: I I think that this is so helpful to a lot of folks who aren't really even sure how to...

Jess Lytle [0:28:36]: As a leader themselves, you know, approach this, but also with, like, the other executive members on the team and how how they should all be working together.

Jess Lytle [0:28:44]: But I think that is so smart to start from the top and and not just think about this from a tooling perspective.

Jess Lytle [0:28:50]: That's one scenario, but it has to start from, like, the culture and the behavior perspective.

Jess Lytle [0:28:56]: So that's great.

Jess Lytle [0:28:57]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:28:58]: I love it.

Jess Lytle [0:28:59]: Anything else you wanna hit on with with Ai and and your team.

Jess Lytle [0:29:02]: I feel like we got...

Jess Lytle [0:29:03]: We got some good stuff there.

Jess Lytle [0:29:04]: I think that's gonna be a lot of what you said I think is gonna be just absolutely critical to a lot of, you know, CMOs and marketing leaders all just trying to figure this out right now.

Bill [0:29:14]: Yeah.

Bill [0:29:14]: The only thing I'll add and maybe this just kinda gets into the other element of just who I am as a human around mentoring and mentorship.

Bill [0:29:22]: And what's really important to me and I'm also very biased.

Bill [0:29:26]: I'll just say it up front.

Bill [0:29:27]: I have two kids in college right now.

Bill [0:29:29]: So I've been living through, what does it look like to have your high school age students embracing Ai, a k, oh, you're you're using it to do your homework.

Bill [0:29:40]: Let's have a conversation about that.

Bill [0:29:42]: Great.

Bill [0:29:43]: Yeah.

Bill [0:29:43]: So that's the fun part of it as a parent.

Bill [0:29:45]: But more so, I think now as they're into college and, the mentorship I've been doing is more with Mba students at the University of Washington.

Bill [0:29:53]: And that to me has been really eye opening to come in and be able to guess lecture.

Jess Lytle [0:29:59]: Yes.

Bill [0:30:00]: Because those students are, you know, already ten ahead of me, and I know that coming into a lecture.

Bill [0:30:06]: So I was like, how am I gonna lecture them?

Bill [0:30:07]: And their questions are definitely more oriented around Ai.

Bill [0:30:11]: And the mentorship that I'm trying to do with them, I think, and the teaching that I'm doing is not just about the curiosity and the embracing.

Bill [0:30:20]: But I'm trying to pitch it more as a...

Bill [0:30:23]: Not to be sort of anti institution But as the person paying two private school college bills every quarter or semester.

Bill [0:30:32]: I'm, like, is this the way of the world, you know, because it's gotten a little outrageous?

Bill [0:30:37]: Yeah.

Bill [0:30:38]: And so maybe, if I can be that contra a little bit.

Bill [0:30:42]: It's like, you know, embracing Ai while you're in school is your leg up to entrepreneurship.

Bill [0:30:49]: And, you know.

Bill [0:30:50]: That I think is the most interesting thing about being in higher ed today, and Esperecially in an Nba program.

Jess Lytle [0:30:57]: Love that.

Bill [0:30:58]: I'm hopeful that, like, more people will come out saying, I'm am I'm in the Me economy now, and how do I leverage these Ai tools to actually put together a product product being them.

Bill [0:31:10]: Right?

Bill [0:31:11]: And what's their personal brand, and that's a lot of the mentorship I do is, like, what's your personal brand?

Jess Lytle [0:31:16]: That

Bill [0:31:16]: And what's what's your distinct value that you bring to an organization?

Bill [0:31:20]: And maybe you go work for, you know, a large corporation, but I think a lot of folks are kinda, like, coming out of the in this next generation.

Bill [0:31:27]: They're like, I don't necessarily wanna go that path and I have a really interesting idea, And now I have the tooling behind me where I don't necessarily need, you know, ten engineers to go build something.

Bill [0:31:38]: So this is this is a fun of, like, it's gonna change the sort of the perspective of, like, what are my job possibilities?

Bill [0:31:45]: And I try...

Bill [0:31:46]: And...

Bill [0:31:46]: What I'm trying to push is, like, everybody's is talking...

Bill [0:31:50]: They always play the fear angle of, like, oh, it's gonna take your job.

Bill [0:31:53]: Ai is gonna take your job.

Bill [0:31:55]: Hell no.

Bill [0:31:55]: Right?

Bill [0:31:56]: You could...

Bill [0:31:56]: You gonna made the same case for the internet.

Bill [0:31:58]: Right?

Bill [0:31:58]: And so...

Jess Lytle [0:31:59]: Exactly.

Jess Lytle [0:31:59]: Just gonna change your job.

Jess Lytle [0:32:01]: Potentially.

Bill [0:32:02]: It's just gonna change.

Bill [0:32:02]: And so just just think about the...

Bill [0:32:05]: What's the change aspect where you take control of your future as an entrepreneur, and ten x a...

Bill [0:32:11]: And disrupt a, you know, a traditional industry that is right for disruption.

Bill [0:32:15]: So it's

Jess Lytle [0:32:16]: I love the entrepreneurship angle, and I think it's really cool that you do those...

Jess Lytle [0:32:20]: The guest lecturing.

Jess Lytle [0:32:21]: I I recently got into that as well over the last few years where I've been doing, like, I'm I'm an ad adjunct professor at Florida International University.

Jess Lytle [0:32:29]: And I I love it, and I was so impressed with the students.

Jess Lytle [0:32:32]: I teach I teach digital marketing and marketing analytics.

Jess Lytle [0:32:36]: And over, like, when I first started teaching, really Ai was just Chat Bt them.

Jess Lytle [0:32:41]: This is a good...

Jess Lytle [0:32:42]: A couple years ago.

Bill [0:32:43]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:32:44]: And I was worried about...

Jess Lytle [0:32:45]: I knew that they were using it to do the work.

Jess Lytle [0:32:47]: So I did try to structure some assignments that made it.

Jess Lytle [0:32:50]: I thought almost maybe impossible to to do, but at the same time, just kinda like, there was no policy around.

Jess Lytle [0:32:57]: There's still...

Jess Lytle [0:32:58]: I think it's it's a hard thing to to figure out at the academic level.

Jess Lytle [0:33:01]: But what I tried to do from my end is, like, I wanted them to understand marketing as it is.

Jess Lytle [0:33:08]: Today, and I know a lot of marketing curriculum, and these are, like typically seniors in their bachelor's programs aren't getting the modern take on and a lot of us like, that have...

Jess Lytle [0:33:18]: I've been doing marketing since I I...

Jess Lytle [0:33:20]: When I graduated in two thousand nine, fifteen years.

Jess Lytle [0:33:22]: So lot has changed in that time.

Jess Lytle [0:33:24]: And I learned on the job.

Jess Lytle [0:33:27]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:33:27]: I didn't learn in my program.

Jess Lytle [0:33:29]: Whatever I learned in my in my bachelor's and masters has probably changed or outdated outside of just the fundamentals.

Jess Lytle [0:33:35]: I think the fundamentals and marketing are still there.

Jess Lytle [0:33:37]: We just need to use Ai to amplify them.

Jess Lytle [0:33:40]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:33:40]: It's still just good marketing.

Bill [0:33:41]: Right.

Jess Lytle [0:33:42]: But I think that...

Jess Lytle [0:33:42]: So I tried to introduce things like tooling, like lovable.

Jess Lytle [0:33:45]: I did a lovable assignment.

Bill [0:33:47]: Us.

Jess Lytle [0:33:48]: And because I want...

Jess Lytle [0:33:49]: But I never thought about it from the entrepreneurial angle.

Jess Lytle [0:33:51]: I love that because there is a moment right now where even the way, like, software was built in two thousand seventeen and two thousand eighteen is very different than how software is built today.

Jess Lytle [0:34:04]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:34:05]: And how, like, a lot of it's just being a builder an entrepreneur sure you could vibe code some things, but it's about...

Jess Lytle [0:34:11]: You're more like an orchestra and you could tie different software together to make a software.

Jess Lytle [0:34:16]: It's just even that has changed so much.

Jess Lytle [0:34:19]: So there is never a better moment, You know, to be then...

Jess Lytle [0:34:22]: Don't build go could be a entrepreneur and build a software, build like, there is a time for that.

Jess Lytle [0:34:28]: And it's...

Jess Lytle [0:34:28]: That's a smart way to think about it because I don't know if if, your children's...

Jess Lytle [0:34:32]: The academics have figured out how to manage that with Chat, but, like, use it to get smarter and and successful and make money versus, you know, just into your network.

Bill [0:34:44]: Yeah.

Bill [0:34:44]: Well, I hope they're getting it because that's that's what we're paying them for we hope.

Bill [0:34:49]: But no.

Bill [0:34:50]: But but in all seriousness, I think the...

Bill [0:34:52]: The interesting point, the sort of the entrepreneurship meets the working world where we're at at Esper, and I'm gonna use your your example around lovable.

Bill [0:35:01]: At Esper, we did a hack recently, and we intentionally sort of mixed up, you know, the departments so that we would have some engineers and some marketers and some you operations people all altogether.

Bill [0:35:13]: Yep.

Bill [0:35:13]: And we asked everybody to kinda come up with a business idea for that would help support the company.

Bill [0:35:18]: And we actually did in our group.

Bill [0:35:20]: We did use lovable to build an app.

Bill [0:35:22]: And it ended up being an app that was more specific to capturing leads at in person events in real time and being able to distribute that information inside the company in real time.

Bill [0:35:35]: And as a marketer, I'm like, oh, my god.

Bill [0:35:37]: And then the funniest part of the whole thing was at the end when we were just kinda doing our own, like, retrospective about as a team of, like, what worked and what didn't.

Bill [0:35:47]: The the thing that came out by not one of us book three of us.

Bill [0:35:51]: We all looked at each other we go.

Bill [0:35:53]: So who's ready to actually leave Esper and go start this business.

Jess Lytle [0:35:57]: There's just the new

Bill [0:35:58]: real because there's a...

Bill [0:35:59]: Right.

Bill [0:36:00]: So it's like your entrepreneurship as.

Bill [0:36:01]: So of course, I'm like well, I think that's For Ip now, but, you know, put that aside for a second, but It is...

Bill [0:36:07]: It's the fun of, like, oh, my gosh.

Bill [0:36:08]: I think we actually just built something.

Jess Lytle [0:36:11]: You could use.

Bill [0:36:12]: Yeah.

Bill [0:36:12]: That we could use.

Bill [0:36:12]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:36:13]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:36:13]: You're literally also this is also gonna change software.

Jess Lytle [0:36:16]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:36:16]: It's gonna become more comm monetize because we could build our own software tools.

Jess Lytle [0:36:20]: Now to do that.

Jess Lytle [0:36:21]: And I know you just had a big conference.

Jess Lytle [0:36:22]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:36:22]: You had your N f.

Bill [0:36:24]: Yeah.

Bill [0:36:24]: The National retail fashion And so Anna nr f and in New.

Jess Lytle [0:36:27]: Deploy those to the sales team and they can just record it, get it in and boom.

Jess Lytle [0:36:31]: You've got emails going out to those Yeah.

Bill [0:36:34]: Don't know.

Bill [0:36:35]: As far, Like, here here we are trying to collect leads across the company going man, if we only have this tool.

Bill [0:36:40]: We.

Bill [0:36:41]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:36:42]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:36:42]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:36:42]: We've done...

Jess Lytle [0:36:43]: I've done that on a couple things, just to help our internal workflows too where, you know, just there was this manual process of literally loading Html for a newsletter.

Jess Lytle [0:36:53]: And I'm like, I'm, like, there's no way in twenty twenty six, we're still spending hours ready Html code.

Jess Lytle [0:36:57]: So I built a little format tool that we could just there three hours gone.

Jess Lytle [0:37:02]: Like things that prop may exist.

Jess Lytle [0:37:04]: You could go look and buy them, but custom to view takes a couple hours to build, have chat Bt builder your prompt for you, build your logic, and then, you know, go go build a tool for yourself.

Jess Lytle [0:37:15]: That's so cool.

Jess Lytle [0:37:15]: Yeah.

Bill [0:37:17]: I...

Bill [0:37:17]: I'll I'll add just one last thing, and I think that this ties back to sort of the next generation too.

Bill [0:37:22]: I've been thinking a lot about the distraction economy.

Bill [0:37:27]: Right, with all the apps that are out there and all the node push notifications.

Jess Lytle [0:37:32]: Yep.

Bill [0:37:32]: And they say I irate recently read a book.

Bill [0:37:34]: It was called the ruthless elimination of Hurry, really interesting book.

Bill [0:37:39]: And They basically said that we now have the attention span slightly less than a gold Now.

Bill [0:37:46]: Okay.

Bill [0:37:47]: Less now at eight seconds.

Bill [0:37:49]: And so in that way, you're comment about, I'm just gonna go build something in two or two hours.

Bill [0:37:55]: My my advice to folks on this is like, you actually need to, like, set aside dedicated time And it call it experimentation time and build it into your calendar.

Bill [0:38:05]: Because to me, that's the only way that I could actually make this work was, I'm...

Bill [0:38:11]: I have to commit to this time as this isn't to, you know, go do something else fifteen other things.

Bill [0:38:16]: Yeah.

Bill [0:38:17]: It's one or two hours a week minimum that's experimentation, and I'm trying to encourage that with my team to say calendar block.

Bill [0:38:25]: Because if you don't guess what everything's gonna be in eight second increments, and we're not gonna actually get learning from

Jess Lytle [0:38:31]: That.

Jess Lytle [0:38:31]: The last point you said to Esperecially where you as a leader are giving permission to your team to do that.

Jess Lytle [0:38:38]: That needs to be said because I think that there's maybe a lot of folks who want to do that.

Jess Lytle [0:38:43]: But, you know, they still have things that they have to execute on that, you know, obviously take priority be smart about your time, but just hearing that, I think from, you know, your your your leader, I think will encourage folks to feel like it's okay to do that to make time for that as part of your workday, and, ultimately, we'll have payback back compounding returns for you, your team your organization because I also think that, like just the the exercise of learning Ai going in there.

Jess Lytle [0:39:12]: That is what for me, at least, it it was almost like, a gateway into more Ai.

Jess Lytle [0:39:17]: You know?

Jess Lytle [0:39:18]: So it's like, the more you use it, the more you realize its capabilities and that you're...

Jess Lytle [0:39:22]: You get more excited about what's out there.

Jess Lytle [0:39:23]: And, like you're like, oh, this is what it...

Jess Lytle [0:39:25]: Okay.

Jess Lytle [0:39:26]: I get it now.

Jess Lytle [0:39:27]: Less abstract every time and, like, the fear in the wall that you have continues to break down over time.

Jess Lytle [0:39:33]: So even just like that as a behavior change, you know, exercise.

Jess Lytle [0:39:36]: Yeah.

Bill [0:39:37]: And you...

Bill [0:39:38]: You...

Bill [0:39:38]: I'll just sorry I have to keep building this is so much fun.

Bill [0:39:40]: Than this covers.

Bill [0:39:41]: Station.

Bill [0:39:42]: Like, so if you take it to that next level.

Bill [0:39:44]: Yeah.

Bill [0:39:45]: Which is you and I both being teachers Yes.

Bill [0:39:48]: Right?

Bill [0:39:48]: Or mentors.

Bill [0:39:49]: How do you know somebody really learn something?

Bill [0:39:51]: They have to say it back to you.

Bill [0:39:53]: So have them explain the tool, And that's where they'll realize their own gaps of, like, what do they know?

Bill [0:40:00]: What do they not know?

Bill [0:40:01]: Have people challenge them or ask questions.

Bill [0:40:04]: And then they truly become the expert either on a tool or a process?

Bill [0:40:08]: Because...

Bill [0:40:09]: They're invested in not just the learning of the tool, but the...

Bill [0:40:14]: How is that then tying back to the change management of the business?

Bill [0:40:18]: Yes.

Bill [0:40:18]: But, like, if you empower them to truly be the teacher, and flip the role and be, like, you know, tell me what you learned and give them that space to say, and what did you fail on and, like, Yes.

Bill [0:40:29]: How are you gonna change from there.

Bill [0:40:31]: That to me really, if that's the moment, Of, they go, oh, I do feel safe.

Bill [0:40:36]: Yeah.

Bill [0:40:36]: Because you let me explain my failure and then let me tell you what I'm gonna do differently next.

Jess Lytle [0:40:41]: Yes.

Jess Lytle [0:40:41]: It's such a great point make because I've said this to somebody else before where I actually too when I'm teaching, I learn more?

Jess Lytle [0:40:50]: So, like, even when I am like, alright.

Jess Lytle [0:40:52]: I really wanna give them this lovable assignment because I wanna, like, I want them to be lovable was just out for like, six months at this point now.

Jess Lytle [0:40:58]: It's like, the what fastest growing company in history.

Bill [0:41:01]: Yes.

Bill [0:41:01]: It is.

Jess Lytle [0:41:02]: And I'm like, oh, what a way to get them, like, ahead and just for them to seed, like, what is available to them.

Jess Lytle [0:41:07]: And it was...

Jess Lytle [0:41:10]: When I put this assignment together, I had into a lot more research, and I learned a lot more about lovable through that experience And, like, So you do when you're when you're presenting on something.

Jess Lytle [0:41:20]: You need to feel like, the expert on it, and you need to be become, you know, I Esperecially, I wanna feel like, I'm really, you know, able to answer any questions to it and I needed to learn at a deeper level myself.

Jess Lytle [0:41:29]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:41:29]: So...

Jess Lytle [0:41:30]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:41:30]: And I was just so impressed by some of, like, the things that they built marketing dashboards just to even use for, like, internal calls, like, you could put your metrics in, it gives you, like, a nice report.

Jess Lytle [0:41:40]: Some of these I was like, oh, my god.

Jess Lytle [0:41:41]: This is good.

Jess Lytle [0:41:41]: Like, I might use this.

Jess Lytle [0:41:42]: This is great.

Jess Lytle [0:41:43]: But yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:41:45]: Like, that that you learn by teaching in ways.

Jess Lytle [0:41:48]: But...

Bill [0:41:48]: That's right.

Jess Lytle [0:41:49]: I love it.

Jess Lytle [0:41:49]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:41:50]: I know we're...

Jess Lytle [0:41:50]: I'm like so sad.

Jess Lytle [0:41:51]: I'm like, we have a few more minutes if you have, I I would love to just dig a little bit into...

Jess Lytle [0:41:56]: If you have just a few more minutes left.

Jess Lytle [0:41:58]: Like, the leadership perspective.

Jess Lytle [0:41:59]: And, like, you know, me coming in as a new head of marketing in this role at x Exit Five, and just any new...

Jess Lytle [0:42:06]: You know, somebody becoming a a VP for the first time or CMO for the first time.

Jess Lytle [0:42:10]: What is some advice that you would would share to those folks, Esperecially, I guess, in this day and age, but they've got all that great information from?

Jess Lytle [0:42:18]: The first part of the call, but any, like, main piece of advice you'd give somebody in there, like, first ninety days or even just beyond?

Bill [0:42:26]: If I can take it to the leadership level, like, first first time marketing leader, I think the biggest learning that I had was I thought that the job was about the being the leader of marketing.

Bill [0:42:37]: In the case of being, like, a part of the executive leadership team you know, CMO, if you're at that level.

Bill [0:42:43]: The biggest learning I was given was that's your first team.

Bill [0:42:47]: Right?

Bill [0:42:48]: And first team is more of a military reference.

Bill [0:42:50]: Right?

Bill [0:42:50]: And there's books about that where the executive leadership team, that is your number one team.

Bill [0:42:56]: Then the functional team you manage is the number two ten.

Jess Lytle [0:43:00]: Yeah.

Bill [0:43:00]: And I didn't get that right at first.

Bill [0:43:02]: Right?

Bill [0:43:02]: I was always about, like, how Gonna offend my team and how am Gonna promote marketing and it's all about, like, making marketing look good.

Bill [0:43:08]: And it was, like, no.

Bill [0:43:09]: As the real value as a true marketing leader is you under stand the rest of the business.

Bill [0:43:13]: You build the relationships with the rest of the executive leadership team.

Bill [0:43:17]: You understand what is important to each of them and, like, what is the mission of the company.

Bill [0:43:22]: And you build your own personal brand in a way that's, like, Oh, he's just not the marketing person or she's just not the marketing person.

Bill [0:43:29]: She is thinking holistically about the company and what impact we can drive for the company, and it just elevate you in the in the company, and in the eyes of the Ceo or even the board.

Bill [0:43:40]: That much more that they know they just hired a business leader, not a marketing leader.

Bill [0:43:46]: So that's probably number one.

Jess Lytle [0:43:48]: That's such a good way to look at it because I think that, you know, a lot of folks that are promoted into this role were usually very high performing marketers and Ics and hadn't had to develop the skills at that level to, you know, to be thinking about, You know, thinking like, okay, I just scale what it is that I was doing really well.

Jess Lytle [0:44:10]: But they're not really paying attention to the the business aspect of it and how marketing fits into everything else and how marketing works with the CFO and the Cp and the Ceo.

Jess Lytle [0:44:20]: And yeah, I think that that's a great great call out and just think to remember that you will now have multiple roles in what you're doing, yes, scale your team, but there's a bigger picture and to be a rEsperected leader in marketing and to be rEsperected by your leadership team.

Jess Lytle [0:44:37]: You know, you need to understand that and know how to deliver, but how do you learn how to how to do

Bill [0:44:44]: that.

Bill [0:44:44]: Yeah.

Bill [0:44:44]: Buy through by failure.

Bill [0:44:45]: Right?

Bill [0:44:46]: And be...

Bill [0:44:46]: Yeah, And being humble.

Bill [0:44:48]: Right?

Bill [0:44:48]: And and but...

Bill [0:44:49]: No.

Bill [0:44:49]: I would...

Bill [0:44:50]: I mean, I think there are active things that you can do a good example would be like, hey, what are the metrics that the CFO and the cf Ceo are using with the board?

Bill [0:44:58]: And how do they think about the health of the business?

Bill [0:45:01]: So if you haven't engaged with a board member and build a relationship with a board member?

Bill [0:45:05]: And build a tight relationship with your CFO and Ceo to be, like, what are the metrics we care most about?

Bill [0:45:11]: And make sure you have a good understanding of, like, how are they actually calculated?

Bill [0:45:15]: Yes.

Bill [0:45:16]: And what are the levers to actually impact those metrics and so you can show up talking about beyond just a traditional marketing waterfall metrics.

Bill [0:45:24]: You can be like, hey, I noticed this about, you know, this metric, which

Jess Lytle [0:45:27]: Right.

Bill [0:45:28]: Hopefully doesn't even...

Bill [0:45:29]: Like, maybe it's indirect to marketing, but you go, I have a perspective on this and, like, that just immediately changes the game for you.

Bill [0:45:36]: And the the thing I would say just sort of later in my career now is that it also opens up the door where you see a lot of, you know, folks saying, well, marketing is now rolling under the chief revenue officer and there's a lot of, you know, cons confirmation about that.

Bill [0:45:51]: Right.

Bill [0:45:51]: And the way I look at is, like, stop being the victim, you have every opportunity to go be a Cro or a Coo or even a Ceo, And so that's how you...

Bill [0:46:02]: That's where you start is, like, be a steward to the business.

Bill [0:46:04]: And then your career progression doesn't necessarily have to end at CMO, you can actually go start thinking about, like, you know, do I have the...

Bill [0:46:12]: Capacity or do I have the interest of going broader than marketing, but I have this deep level of marketing knowledge and expertise that is just an added component to whatever I go decide to do that?

Jess Lytle [0:46:24]: Goes through, Esperecially in this this era.

Jess Lytle [0:46:26]: Where, you know, we have Ai with us.

Jess Lytle [0:46:28]: I've seen some really strong Cro with marketing backgrounds who are, I think initially going that route, and then just got so deep into how, like, the revenue impact of marketing.

Jess Lytle [0:46:40]: Right?

Jess Lytle [0:46:41]: And that's where it should be where marketing is focused on pipeline and revenue and what really matters and and being able to speak in that way and at that level, but then owning that.

Jess Lytle [0:46:50]: You know?

Jess Lytle [0:46:51]: And if you have a sales background as a marketing leader, you know, you can you can see that across, like, spectrum.

Jess Lytle [0:46:57]: But...

Bill [0:46:58]: Yeah.

Bill [0:46:58]: Exactly.

Jess Lytle [0:46:59]: Well, thank you, Bill.

Jess Lytle [0:47:00]: This is awesome.

Bill [0:47:02]: I yes.

Bill [0:47:02]: I agree.

Jess Lytle [0:47:03]: Are are you coming to the marketing leadership retreat?

Bill [0:47:07]: I am.

Bill [0:47:07]: I'm super excited.

Bill [0:47:08]: And okay out.

Bill [0:47:09]: Can't we to meet other fellow marketing folks from the CMO Counsel.

Bill [0:47:12]: It's gonna be awesome.

Jess Lytle [0:47:14]: That's gonna be awesome.

Jess Lytle [0:47:14]: I will see you there as well.

Jess Lytle [0:47:15]: I will be in there No I'll be directing that, So we'll meet in person.

Jess Lytle [0:47:18]: So...

Bill [0:47:19]: Can't Wait.

Jess Lytle [0:47:20]: Yeah.

Jess Lytle [0:47:20]: So this is great.

Jess Lytle [0:47:21]: Enjoy your weekend.

Jess Lytle [0:47:21]: Hopefully you've got some good.

Bill [0:47:23]: Thanks Jess.

Jess Lytle [0:47:24]: Family time plans.

Bill [0:47:25]: Absolutely and go home.

Jess Lytle [0:47:26]: Yeah Sorry.

Bill [0:47:27]: Have to say it.

Jess Lytle [0:47:29]: Go hot.

Jess Lytle [0:47:29]: Alright.

Jess Lytle [0:47:30]: See Isabelle.

Jess Lytle [0:47:31]: Thank you.

Bill [0:47:32]: Thanks Jess.

Jess Lytle [0:47:33]: Bye.

Jess [0:47:37]: Hey.

Jess [0:47:37]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

Jess [0:47:38]: If you like this episode.

Jess [0:47:40]: You know what?

Jess [0:47:40]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't

Bill [0:47:45]: really care about that.

Jess [0:47:45]: I have something better for you.

Jess [0:47:46]: So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers Exit Five, and you can go and check that out instead of leaving a rating a review, go check it out right now on our website, exitfive.com.

Jess [0:47:58]: Our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing, and there's no better place to do that than with us had Exit Five.

Jess [0:48:05]: There's nearly five thousand members now in our community.

Jess [0:48:08]: People are in there posting every day asking questions about things like marketing planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you can have a peer group, or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest.

Jess [0:48:26]: It's a hundred percent free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free from and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you wanna become a member for the year.

Jess [0:48:35]: Go check it out, learn more exitfive.com, and I will see you over there in the community.

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